Tokyo want to try 4.75 inch (120 mm) double cappers. this is standard size in our club (and Tokyo).
I'll send request e-mail to you later, Lucky.
Machine Politics vs Beaver Boys, May 2011. Photo by Bruce Carver
Machine Politics vs Beaver Boys, May 2011. Photo by Bruce Carver
Hey everyone,
Spring is here and the tournament/traveling season is upon us. Big things are in store for bike polo players, organizers, and sponsors all summer long, including St Cago Polo Works.
I'm going legit! In order to do things like; get insurance (which some wholesale companies require of all vendors), write off travel to tournaments as a business expense, try to get investors/loans to have an injection mold made or an aluminum extrusion done, lease a touring van, whatever, St Cago will become an LLC in St Louis, Missouri. A real, tax-paying, can't sue me if a mallet head explodes and takes out your eye, American manufacturing concern.
I'm branching out! Been talking with people all over about other things to make "in-house" and collaborate on under the St Cago banner. Lighter "tournament edition" heads, dual brake set ups, collapsible goals, and mallet-carrying messenger bag attachments are a few things that have been bandied about. If you have an idea or finished product for bike polo that you can't be bothered to make, promote, or ship, get in touch with me. I'll have a tax I.D. and can take some of the twice a week trips to the post office drudgery away from your polo product ideas.
Finally, I'm making an insane number of mallet heads! Hopefully a summer's worth so no one has to wait for the next batch. Hopefully enough to encourage club orders. And hopefully enough of each size/style of head that everyone gets what they want, not just what's available.
Which brings me to my second question for all of you: Any custom size requests? I'll be making this huge batch over the next few weekends. It will include: the 2 3/8" X 7" single cappers in both good ole' durable "pick-up" style as well as the 30% lighter "tournament" style (made from thinner-walled pipe). 2 3/8" X 5 1/2" and 5" long double cappers in both pick-up and tournament. And the return of the smaller, 2" diameter X 5 1/2" long double cappers.
Anything shorter or longer in the double cappers? The singles you can cut to any length shorter than 7". Does anyone want longer than that? Speak up now, or forever hold your peace. No extra charge for custom sizes, but you do have to make your request in the next two weeks. If there is a lot of demand for, say, a 4 1/2" long double capper, I'll make it a stock size and include it in future batches.
Thanks everyone. It's a real privilege to get to scratch my engineering and manufacturing itches with the support of this fine and ever-expanding community of clever, sophisticated, hooligans. I'm really proud of us for how we are handling our growth, and am happy to participate in the development of the sport.
-Lucky
Tokyo want to try 4.75 inch (120 mm) double cappers. this is standard size in our club (and Tokyo).
I'll send request e-mail to you later, Lucky.
Riki@Tokyo Hardcourt Bike Polo
tokyobikepolo.blogspot.com / www.flickr.com/rikitko / twitter: RikiTokyo
would i be the only one for a 6" double cap?
Sam: Mallet head orders over the internet - 1-3 heads, 14 USD per, plus shipping. 4-11 heads, 13 USD per, plus shipping. 12 or more heads (club orders) 12 USD per, plus shipping. Mallet heads bought in person from me or one of my agents at a tournament or such, 13 USD. If you want to pre-arrange for a club order to be picked up at an event, send me an email, we'll work something out.
Modified dual brake levers are being priced this week and next as I get bids in from machine shops around town. My goal is to have it be less than the problem solver, which is 38 bucks from most bike shops. It would be great if I could do it for around 20-25, but we'll just have to see.
Collapsible goals are a fantasy right now. 1. I need a standard goal size to be established. 2. I need to get my lazy metal working friends to return emails. Working on design/feasibility right now. Pricing won't come until that's nailed down. Here's my inspiration, though.
Messenger bag mods are also just an idea right now. If there are any bag makers out there (Abe in Chi, Henry in Lex, seagull, dank, etc) who are interested in some contracted piece work, email me and I'll send you the design. We can negotiate a price.
Riki: I'll get to work on your order. 4.75" is no problem.
Josh: Probably not, but so what if you are? I'm soliciting custom size orders at no extra charge. Do you want 2 3/8" or 2" O.D. pipe?
Wanna buy some polo stuff?
http://www.fixcraft.net/stcago
lucky, i would like one of those tokyo-shorties myself, and and another one that's 4.5" . will these be ready by KC friendlies?
That's the plan.
Wanna buy some polo stuff?
http://www.fixcraft.net/stcago
"tokyo-shorties"... i love that sound. :)
and some one use 4.35 inch in our club. we love shorter & lighter heads.
Riki@Tokyo Hardcourt Bike Polo
tokyobikepolo.blogspot.com / www.flickr.com/rikitko / twitter: RikiTokyo
i'm going to try to get a club order for heads, but i definitely want dibs on a dual brake lever from the first batch. shit, that might be a club order too (half of us use a dual setup).
---------------------------
carve. smash. eat shit.
Those 2" and the thin walls, no custom requests, just make sure you got enough for me.
I blew both caps off my last 2" in Lexington this weekend, flew off like the Glaive, and the "pickup style" one I replaced it with on the spot is like swinging a brick in comparison.
You'll see. Unless you drilled out your eyes because they were too heavy.
Yeah, like I've said elsewhere; I'm using a better grade of HDPE material for the caps now and being a little more scientific when I fuse them, so the occasional cap-flying-off should be less of a problem in the future.
Drizz: I've got 10 short pull and 10 long pull levers going right now. I'll want to see how much they are going to be and how much people like them before I sell 'em in bulk. I'm trying to engineer them well, but someone always seems to have a great suggestion after using it for a while that I'll want to incorporate in the next run.
Wanna buy some polo stuff?
http://www.fixcraft.net/stcago
need any subjects to test the prototypes?
---------------------------
carve. smash. eat shit.
Are you going to be in Little Rock this weekend? Hope so, I know we're planning to pick up a few new heads for our mallets.
I know you dont want to explain your secrets, but whats the general idea for the levers? Will they pull two cables from the lever, also will they be independently adjustable from the lever?
All questions about the levers will be answered when they come back from the machinist and I can post pictures and give a price. It's pretty much the set-up Hannes describes in this thread, but hopefully with better enough fit and finish to make you want to buy it instead of try to make it.
No secrets here, just that not all of us have the time/skills/interest to make these things for ourselves, so I will try to make them for you.
The levers being used in this batch are cheap tektro flat bar levers. They're the only ones that come in both long and short pull using the same body style. It cuts down on the machining cost to have as many things the same as you can.
Wanna buy some polo stuff?
http://www.fixcraft.net/stcago
I'd like to get my hands on some of the tourney style heads, single capped.
Eagerly anticipating the thin-walled tourney cappers.
I'd also be interested in buying and testing a dual brake lever.
What about the 2" O.D. heads? Any odd lengths? I was just going to make them all 5.5". Rob? Johnathan? Kev?
Wanna buy some polo stuff?
http://www.fixcraft.net/stcago
What length were the old ones?
I wouldn't want anything any shorter than that.
And anything longer would probably just be an "oh that looks neat, I might try that for a game" type of thing.
You'll see. Unless you drilled out your eyes because they were too heavy.
Old ones were 5 1/2". New ones are 5 1/2". All the fusing is done for this batch. Still a few steps until they're saleable, but I sould be able to bring a box to K.C. this weekend, and post a new thread for mallets next week.
The machinist says he can have the brake levers done this week. We'll see. He's a great guy, but he has the worst time managment skills of anyone I've ever worked with.
Wanna buy some polo stuff?
http://www.fixcraft.net/stcago
You said that you'd have both long and short pull levers, yeah? Bring both!
Pro-friendly bike polo!
Awesome, I wont be in KC but if Abe goes I'll be sure to send at least a little money with him for them 2"ers.
You'll see. Unless you drilled out your eyes because they were too heavy.
Yeah, Tokyo is waiting to new mallet heads!
Riki@Tokyo Hardcourt Bike Polo
tokyobikepolo.blogspot.com / www.flickr.com/rikitko / twitter: RikiTokyo
Hey everyone, I made a little webstore in hopes that there would be fewer emails between you wanting and you getting. This should also help to alleviate the problems I've been having towards the end of a batch where more than one person claims the last of a particular size and style of mallet head.
This also marks the official introduction of the Tournament edition heads. All the details of that are on the site, which will also be linked to in my signature.
As of right now, I've only worked out shipping for US orders. I'll get to Canadian, European, and AustrAsian as soon as I can. If you are not from the US and you're itching to place an order, contact me through my profile here and we'll work something out.
Thanks, everyone. This is kind of a big deal to me, and I couldn't have done it without all of your support and feedback.
-Lucky
Wanna buy some polo stuff?
http://www.fixcraft.net/stcago
OK. So it's been about 6 weeks since the webstore went on line, and I'm putting in my first re-stocking of standard product. Between last weekend and some other weekend in the next little while, I will have made more mallet heads in June of '10 than I did in all of '09. 'S crazy. Thanks to everyone from all over who's bought stuff and/or suggested improvements for the stuff.
Tournament Singles are back in! Made a bunch, hope they last a while. Great for weight weenies, bad for rough courts.
Re-stock on all sizes of Tournament Doubles and Pick-up Singles. Still had a few of each size of Pick-up doubles, so that's what will get done later.
I haven't had any reports of caps popping off since I switched to the "pipe grade" black material. Hopefully this means that the fusion joint is more reliable, and not that people are so disgusted with the product that they don't even want to make a warranty claim. Let me know.
The edges of the caps are still kinda ugly, but I've finally gone through all the stock that was cut that way. If there's more to be made, they'll be a little better looking. Waterjets, baby. The heads seem to be holding up, though.
I did a lot better with the lengths this time around too. All the re-stocked doubles are within 1/8" of the stated size. Usually just a little long.
An improved dual pull brake lever system is in the works. Gonna try to have it done by NAs, but I can't promise it. Slotted adjusters and plate/rod for quick cable changes, and it will be available as a kit to bolt on to your lever, or as a complete lever set up from St Cago.
Wanna buy some polo stuff?
http://www.fixcraft.net/stcago
Wow. Thanks a metric polo-tonne to everyone who sought me out, cash-in-hand, at last weekend's biggest and bestest tournament ever! Even while I was hiding out in the shade trees behind court 4. Extra special big ups to the Lawrence, KS crew reppin' fixcraft for watching my milk crate while I was reffin', and acting double-quick to put together a great deal on complete mallet kits using their great shafts and my heads.
Here's the news:
•Looking at solidifying that mutually good relationship with fixcraft to get y'all deals on heads and poles together. Give us a minute to work out the details, it's awesome when we happen to be at the same tourney with our stuff. Warehousing and webstore interfaces takes a little longer.
•Version 2.0 of the dual pull brake lever is out. Started with better levers and added slots for quick cable changes. Still counting on your feedback to get to the best design, though. Let me know if the cable ends slide out of the rod, or the adjusters snap off, or if want a two finger lever or anything. I'm thinking about using road cables instead of mountain, cos I can make a more secure landing for that style of nipple in the rod. Any objections or suggestions?
•Also selling a kit to bolt the dual lever "hack" onto the lever you've already got. It should be kind of universal, but not totally. Looking at other people's levers all weekend game me new appreciation for exactly how many brilliant and crazy minds have been at work in the bicycle industry. The bolt that comes with the kit will attach the plate to most, but not all brake levers.
You might also need to file or dremel either the plate or your lever so that the two mate well. I put some extra meat in the plate just for this.
I intend to make and post some instructions for putting it together this week, but no promises.
•I did a warrantee claim on a tournament edition single capped mallet head that had split along one of the lines that are scored into them so that you can align the shaft and bolt. Has anyone else had this problem? If I just happened to hit a weak spot in the plastic that's one thing. If this is a persistent problem and I need to put those lines on with a paint marker instead of a nail, I'll do it.
OK? OK. Thanks again y'all. Sorry if I put any long time customers in the penalty box. But the whistle and the wallet gotta stay separate for polo to be at its best.
Wanna buy some polo stuff?
http://www.fixcraft.net/stcago
•Looking at solidifying that mutually good relationship with fixcraft to get y'all deals on heads and poles together. Give us a minute to work out the details, it's awesome when we happen to be at the same tourney with our stuff. Warehousing and webstore interfaces takes a little longer.
.
that rules. This is my current set up and i love it.
Out of interest what levers are you using now?
As an update from someone using one since May:
The tektro lever from the original version is taking a bit of a punishing and has developed quite a bit of vertical play (The adjuster bolt doesn't seem to be capable of removing the play without binding the lever).
Additionally, I snapped the lower barrel adjuster off mine during a crash in the Euros, no big deal as there was a bike store courtside but it hadn't occured to me to carry a spare barrel adjuster (Something that I will do in future).
Compared to the problem solver that I was using previously the setup is far nicer to dial in and I'd recommend it just for ease of replacing cables. So far I've had to swap cables during 2 tournaments and both times it's taken less than five minutes, To get around the issue I've been having with the front cable snapping (Which used to happen with my solver as well), I'm going to drill the topcap and run the cable through the steerer tube.
Basically, it's all good but a spare adjuster in the tool kit is a good idea.
I used these for long pull cos it looked in the catalog picture like they had a hinged clamp. They do not, and I'm pretty sure they are just re-branded tektro levers. I used these for short pull and I'm pretty happy with them, although I had to machine flats in the lever body to fit the plate cos it was such a goofy casting.
Also using bigger and better quality adjuster barrels this time around. You weren't the only one who had one break on you. They are 7mm slit barrels for quick cable changes. Your LBS should have some around.
Wanna buy some polo stuff?
http://www.fixcraft.net/stcago
Also: The van broke down on the way back from Madison on Monday afternoon. So half of my stock of mallet heads, and all of the new brake levers, are locked up in the the autozone parking lot in a small town in Central Illinois right now. I'll re-open the webstore today with what I've got on hand, but it'll be the weekend before I can get going with the new brake levers. Sorry and thanks.
Wanna buy some polo stuff?
http://www.fixcraft.net/stcago
I completely regret not picking one of the brake levers up at madison. Let me know when ya get them back in stock either on the website or offsite.
They're in now. We finally rescued the van from the little town where it broke down. Mallet heads, brakes levers, and brake lever kits are all counted in and available for sale. Order this week to get stuff before Worlds!
Wanna buy some polo stuff?
http://www.fixcraft.net/stcago
The levers still say "coming soon" on the web shop. Should I just send you a message with what I want?
.Storm Boys.
2011 Australian Champions
Sorry about that. Thanks for the heads up. I just fixed it.
But you're screwed anyway, cos I still haven't set the shipping prices for Australia and Asia. Looks like you'll have to email me your order anyway. I'm going to be sending an order to Virgina and Donald in Sydney this evening. If you can get me your order before 5pm CST I'll throw it in the same box and you'll all save on shipping.
Wanna buy some polo stuff?
http://www.fixcraft.net/stcago
I have FINALLY set up shipping options to Australia, New Zealand, South Korea, and Japan. You may all order fewer than 10 heads or whatever direct from the site without ever having to rely on my email checking skills, which are weak. 10 or more heads and you'll still have to go through me to set up shipping. That's the weight at which the Post Office jumps from First Class to Priority shipping, and the method the webstore used to calculate shipping costs can't handle it.
RE: Shipping. I have now had two packages take way too long to get delivered. One to Canada and one to Spain. They did get there eventually, but it was no fun worrying about it. If this becomes a persistent problem, I will look into UPS or FedEX for international orders, but they are crazy expensive compared to the post. Stay tuned.
RE: Heads. I have successfully made enough heads of every size to get me through a tournament season (midwests to worlds) with some to spare. Such a relief to not have to do make-up batches before big tournys through the summer. Next batch will be done in Fall/Winter. I'll ask again about custom sizes then.
Other changes will be; more tournament edition, less pick up (except for singles). Paint marker lines for orienting your shaft instead of scored lines. There were a coupla tournament singles that split along the scored line. Only two that I've been told about, but it's easy to avoid in the future.
RE: Levers. I'm mostly OK with the design where it is. Gonna switch to road cables for a more secure seating in the rod vs the MTB barrels. Still looking for a better Long-Pull lever, hinged would be sweet. I'd like to get the price down, but this is where it's at for right now. Early adopter and all. Any complaints about the Short Pull lever? The design? Happier with the quick-change option and the beefier adjusters?
RE: St Cago heads and Fixcraft poles. We're still working out a deal. We're both super-excited about offering a discounted, 'complete mallet' package like we did at NAs, but haven't figured out who's gonna store who's stuff in what amounts and take on the shipping yet. They just moved their whole warehouse facility, from poles and wheel-covers to seven inches and grindcore t's. So it's gonna take a while longer. Probably they will carry my stuff starting with the next batch.
RE: The name "St Cago". It's a portmanteau, "St" from Saint Louis, where I live. "Cago' from Chicago, where I'm from. It's not "Kay-go". They aren't "Lucky heads". I, Lucky, am not a Saint. Not that I was interested, but to incorporate under "Lucky", "Lucky Co.", "Lucky Polo Stuff", or whatever, would've involved fighting off more than just the jeans people. Thank you.
Seriously, thanks everyone. This is fun.
Wanna buy some polo stuff?
http://www.fixcraft.net/stcago

hurray! just built this baby today. still a little heavy, but luggin around an EighthInch mallet, i've built the guns for this. lol. more relief holes will probably be in the future, but i cant wait to try it out tonight.
give blood. play polo.
I'll be in STL for pickup on the 22nd. Please save a long-pull lever for me.
Thanks Lucky!
I want a 2 stage dual brake lever!
You'll see. Unless you drilled out your eyes because they were too heavy.
i drilled more holes. and its still heavy! good thick piece of pipe man. off to drill some more.
give blood. play polo.
Fall/Winter can't come soon enough. I have an order amassing in DC for whenever you restock. Let us know!
yeah, i want to buy some also.
did rob g. talk to you about a 2 stage lever idea?
Nope, not that I've made myself easy to get a hold of lately.
After a year of working part-time, using the off-days to work on bike polo stuff and ship out orders, I just stared a new full-time, grown-up-type job. It will take me a little while to figure out how to squeeze St Cago into the new schedule. My apologies to all those who've been waiting for email answers from me about their orders or when Tournament Singles are going to be back in stock.
I'm hoping to be able to get a really big batch of heads out in early November. It will be predominantly Tournament and Pick-up Singles. I should be able to do another short run of brake levers in the next 3-4 weeks. Does anyone have any complaints/suggestions about this last batch with the split adjusters?
When the next batch does come out, it will be sold through Fixcraft/Blue Collar Distro. They are super-cool people to deal with from both the artist/producer side and the customer/fan side, and I will happily give up the meager percentage they want in exchange for them handling the constant trips to the post office. I wasn't great at that stuff even when I had one or two weekdays to take care of it. Cost of mallets heads will stay the same, shipping might go up a little, but will become much more reliable. They are professional distributors, after all.
Thanks a lot everyone. It's still fun to make this stuff for y'all.
Wanna buy some polo stuff?
http://www.fixcraft.net/stcago
Lucky, received my package in time for the crown,thanks.
Can't wait to swap out the cheap dual (short pull!) brake lever for the St Cago version. Need to get it on before the crown this weekend!
....... __o
........\<,\
.... ( )/( ) \o
Hey Y'all - I've closed down the webstore and packed up what little remaining stock I've got to take to Lexington this weekend. Orders received this week (Japan, Australia, San Fran)will be sent out early next week, when I get back to town. Orders to Decatur and San Fran went out Wednesday.
I've only got a handful of tournament and pick up doubles left on the shelves. Plus a few dual pull kits. More brake levers have been ordered, and the machinist should be able to turn them around in a coupla weeks. New heads are in the planning, but I'm going to have to wait until I've moved apartments and caught up a little financially to buy all those materials. Funny thing about ramping up production to meet increasing demand: you need a lot of cash at the start to buy huge quantities of materials and services. Better this than no interest, though. Thanks for sticking with me, everyone! Huge batch of tournament singles coming in early 2011.
Wanna buy some polo stuff?
http://www.fixcraft.net/stcago
OK. Big things in store for 2011. The most notable is probably the fact that I'm moving from St Louis back up to Chicago, which means I have to close the webstore for a minute while I sort out paypal and new bank accounts after I get settled up there. After that little break, I'll open back up with the brake levers (batch is at the machinist now) and maybe some other new stuff, too. The next batch of heads will be done in early 2011 and will be sold exclusively by fixcraft. They've got a great deal set up for people who make stuff (music mostly) and have people who LIKE going to the post office everyday, which was becoming a problem for me.
So there you go. There'll be a new return address on all your orders in the new year. I'm working on making more of everything and developing new stuff too. It's just taking a while cos of the move and new jobs and such. Thanks for sticking with me.
Wanna buy some polo stuff?
http://www.fixcraft.net/stcago
do it BiG son!
"wear a face mask or duck" - Tall George
stick 2 da code, stop snitchin'
http://www.scarylarrykbp.org/
http://www.fixcraft.net/
http://321polo.net/
my pick up single is still going strong but looking forward to the new batch of heads. Good luck in Chicago.
OK! I'm all moved into the windy city, my new job is working out, and I no longer have to look after 13 cats in 5 apartments (if you get people to help you unload a moving truck in December in Chicago, you end up owing a lot of people favors). This means I can start concentrating on St Cago again!
Dual Pull Brake Levers should be done this week or next. New this batch: The rods take road cables, not MTB. I think this will provide a more secure seat. The MTB barrels occasionally slipped out of their saddles on the old style. Also, I have produced a few of the kits with M8 and M6 bolts, for those of you using Paul, Tech 77, or some other BMX levers that don't have the M10 adjuster that the plate usually bolts into.
There is a deposit on the new batch of caps, and materials will be ordered next week, as soon as I have a Chicago checking acct set up. I went ahead and bought the fusion rigs that I used to have to rent, so I should be both more flexible and more diligent about making custom sizes and filling in stock as things sell out. My goal for 2011 is to not run out of heads all season long. But to keep making them in whatever styles are demanded, by holding stockpiles of pipe and caps in house to fuse up to send to fixcraft and/or take to tournaments with less lead time. This is a big change in how I finance and run the operation, but, if my email inbox is any indication, I'm only hurting myself and disappointing people with the batch production model.
Oh, and the thin walled HDPE pipe that I make the tournament edition heads from? I'm gonna make that available to you all uncapped for 4 bucks a foot, cos so many people have been asking me about it.
Thanks again for waiting for me. I'll see you all around this summer.
-Lucky
Wanna buy some polo stuff?
http://www.fixcraft.net/stcago
good on you, lucky. looking forward to another tourny single capper.
---------------------------
carve. smash. eat shit.
4 dollars a foot? You should charge $5.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
fixcraft.net
You need an M9 for the Paul levers. These essentially don't exist unless you machine them yourself.
M9? Why would they do that? You can't even get M9 adjusters off-the-shelf, not that you can get M8. They come in M6, M7 (which I use on the dual pull levers and kits) and M10.
Man, I can't wait to get my own lathe and mill so I can enforce my wacky engineering standards on the whole world. Everything will be measured in Picas and Rads.
Wanna buy some polo stuff?
http://www.fixcraft.net/stcago
dual brake is tight, modded to avid lever even better. lucky straight killin the game
http://www.mkebikepolo.com/wordpress/
Das Beaver Boys
I want to buy a lever! When they be in stock?
me toooo! tokyo need some your lever asap!
Riki@Tokyo Hardcourt Bike Polo
tokyobikepolo.blogspot.com / www.flickr.com/rikitko / twitter: RikiTokyo
soooooo, when can i buy the heads ?
"ok Mr. Schwinn fucking Armstrong!"
www.burrobags.com
yeah i just bought the mke capped head because i can't wait any longer. still want a st cago single capper, though...
---------------------------
carve. smash. eat shit.
I just brought the box of levers home from the shop. I've got some emails to go through and I have to wait a coupla days for paypal and my new bank to meet each other, but I tentatively have 11 long pull, 12 short pull, 8 regular kits (w/M10X1 screw), 3 kits with an M6 screw for Tech 77 levers and some other old BMX stuff, and and 3 kits with an M8 screw cos I thought that's what Paul levers used. It's not, apparently.
On the mallet head side: Things are moving, although slowly. The caps are being cut out of the sheet by a waterjet guy this week. Then they go to my notoriously slow machinist. The real hiccup right now is getting the thin walled pipe for the Tournament heads. Last year it was only stocked at a yard in Boston, and my order was small enough to cut up and ship UPS. This year, it's only stocked in Kingman, AZ and I want enough that they have to ship it freight, which is painfully expensive.
Any Phoenix or Las Vegas polo players wanna take a road trip on my behalf? I can reward you with mallets-a-plenty.
Thanks once again for sticking with me through the move and all the BS. It'll get done, and this batch will be properly huge, so that the nice folks at Fixcraft can happily ship them out to y'all.
Wanna buy some polo stuff?
http://www.fixcraft.net/stcago
Drop a price list on us when you get a chance.