Machine Politics vs L'Équipe, August 2010. Photo by Steph Simcox
post you setup and the reasons behind your specific setup...pros and cons vs other setups...
you bastard! just know that secrecy leads to mistrust and SABOTAGE. see you at the next tourney...
FTL BIKE POLO...
i just made the switch recently and am loving it.
here is the double barrel lever i have: dimension double barrel lever. it allows adjustment of the front and rear independently of each other at the lever. i have mine set to lock the rear tire and grip the front just enough to keep me from flying over the bars.
i have a set of shimano BR-R450 brakes, which barely allow me to remove the wheel when the tire is at pressure. i know you run larger tires than me (i run 28s, last time we played together you were running 32s?), so i suggest getting these tektro brakes that allow the caliper to open wider for larger tires.
hope that helps.
carve. smash. eat shit.
Booo... No supersweet endo saves for you.
if i grab that lever hard enough, i'll superman that ho.
Paul, that brake lever is long pull for V brakes.
eh, doesn't seem to be affecting anything. it brakes fine. should i be worried about something failing since i have short pull calipers?
Drizz..after you showed me your setup at the Rumble last week Im switching over..tried just one brake with the freewheel and still felt outta control, so tonight Im installing the double pull. Casey told me I'd feel like tossing my bike & I did the other night but Im gonna give it some time-better than getting tossed around with the fixed....we'll see.
I fitted the same lever recently and enjoyed the complete stop it gave me. I've since swapped wheels and can't get the balance right front to back. Plus I got a kink in the front wheel and it's now jolting me around like crazy when I apply the brakes even gently. So, mixed results. Loved it at first, now i do feel like tossing the bike (or at least the set up) I'll reserve my judgement for when I get my front wheel trued.
has anyone used a shift lever for a brake lever before? i run u brakes and i really doubt theres enough leverage but I'm curious
You mean doubling up with an STI lever?
i have no idea what you're talking about. any pictures out there?
My set up is dual v-brakes with a canti lever for the rear brake and a thumb index shifter connected to the front with the ratcheting mechanism removed. Allows me to slide the rear very easily and even do stoppies if I want with the thumb brake.
i;ve seen that done, its called a spoon brake or somethin. the suntour non-index'd ones work for it i think..but for a ubrake it'd be hard to get a strong pull because of the short lever
I've heard mixed things about the dimension double barrel lever.
Looking at a bmx bike the other day and I wonder how well a cable doubler would work? Though adjusting the pull on each brake would not be as easy.
Ben Schicago uses one of those. He says once it's dialed in it works really well.
I can't recall if it was a dimension one or not, but early on in Chicago someone had a double pull lever and the casting cracked first day. It may be a good idea, but you're going to have to find a well made one.
There is or was a BMX product for this. I wanna say it's called a "sex change".
Chicago Bike Polo 2003-2008
St Louis Bike Polo 2008-fun
The BMX part Lucky is referring to was made by Primo, called the Pervert. It was the first product of its kind to use regular lengths of brake cable for a gyro instead of the pre-fab upper cable, which I believe is still used today. I think Primo stopped making them in the late nineties.
i have heard from more than one person that the dimension lever can fail...and i am just a little bit uncomfortable with the one cable to two idea because if the one cable fails you are brakeless freewheel into the wall or another player at full speed. am i just being a baby, hahaha?
FTL BIKE POLO...
Better stick with that fixie, baby. If you are freewheel and your (normal) brake cable fails...
if you're that worried about equipment failure, ride a setup that has some form of brake redundancy, for example: fixed with a brake (in case the chain drops/pops). personally, i don't think brake failure is that big of an issue for a polo only bicycle. even if you're going full speed with no way to stop because of a chain/brake failure, is it really going to be much worse than a non-equipment-failure-related polo accident? everyone has run into something/someone or lost control while hauling ass because we didn't gauge our braking efforts well enough (or at all). that being said, equipment is going to break. it's the use that you get out of it before it breaks that matters.
A week ago I set up two levers on the left side of the handlebar. Lever for the rear brake on top and the lever for the front brake on the bottom. Pretty easy to grab both levers with one hand or just one or the other, but it does take a little thought in the middle of a polo game. I'm not quite used to it yet.
I've seen at least a couple polo players with this type of set up.
in case anyone was wondering what that looks like:
also got some work done on my rear brake
you now have me wanting to try to rig up something similar to this on the bike I am building..gonna try something a little different though..one small lever and one regular size lever..we will see how it goes
I was thinking the same shit. one smaller.
seems a lil cluttered. but I'm sure you get used to that shit after a few plays.
Problem solvers cable doubler. Awesome, durable, pretty simple to install. Avid Single Digit 7 front and rear v-brakes with the matching brake lever. Nokon aluminum housing to keep my lines smooth and undamaged.
All the durable double brake levers (Odyssey Mono, for example) are for short-pull, not long-pull. So if you're using canti or side-pull brakes that's the way to go. But they won't work with v-brakes. Furthermore, NONE of the long-pull double brake levers on the market are built to withstand bike polo. Yet. More break than brake. So if you have v-brakes get the Problem Solvers doubler and you'll be all set.
i can't find anything on the odyssey mono double lever. do you have a link?
uh ive never heard of the double lever but try danscomp.com
you all should retire your double levers, and two levers on once side. We all know i ahve hte most legit double system around. Straight from the Bmx world. Get on that tip suckers.
74 Miles per hour bitches.
"ok Mr. Schwinn fucking Armstrong!"
how about talking us through that setup of yours...i still can't find that spacial knarp.
I Feel like this might be a good place to ask this.
Why the interest in double brakes? I understadn the ability to stop on a dime is rather nice, (I certainly get why Ben uses one after seeing him play and beign throughly impressed with his speed) but I don't understand that versus the braking and manuverability of a single back brake or the endo madness that is drunkie unkie on his front brake. Explanations? Different thread?
The only reason anyone does anything.
For the lulz.
front brake = better stopping power, but can lead to superman over bars if not careful (preferred by fixed riders?)
back brake = inferior stopping power compared to front brake, but is safe and allows skidding (preferred by free riders?)
front & rear brakes = best of both worlds
Drizz has got it - best of both worlds.
My rear brake engages before my front, giving me the skid. The front allows me stop at any point during the skid and either immediately accelerate or hold the position.
It really is a great system.
Reasonable. I immediately worry because my play style has bgun to rely heavily upon the inferior stoppinf power for whipping my ass around for sharper turns. (now aided by cliples pedals).
I do think that fixed gear with a rear brake is a very interesting setup. I like that you will get both instant stopping power but also the ability to skid that I enjoy. Personally I like javier's contribution the most, being able to choose how much power you have to stopping and being able to ride free would be my preferred choice.
the issue really boils down to personal preference. the jury is still out for me, but i'm adapting well to the switch from fixed with front brake to free with both brakes. so far i recommend it. talk to me in a month or so and see if i still feel the same.
I am really impressed often at how personalized polo bikes get for being pretty stripped down pieces of machinery.
there are so many times that even with my front brake fixed i can stop (skid and brake simultaneously) and cutback and just wait for a rear brake freewheel or fixed rider to slide right past me leaving an open passing lane or open shot. skids are great for maneuverability but front brakes actually stop you...so having the ability to do both but with the added freedom of a freewheel is just deadly. on defense when people try to stop short and cut in on you towards the goal and you have the superior brake setup you will block their lane and even tap them out when they turn into your rear tire. when you're both sprinting for the goal on a fast break both on offense and defense the player with dual brakes can go faster for longer and those inches can mean blocks and goals. endos + skids + crazy extended over your bars shots...is there a negative (for non-goalies)?
different players adapt to playing differently (front or rear or both brakers), and learn to shape their game to compensate for the weaknesses of their bike setups. i see the advantage of front and rear brakes on paper but i rarely see the need for it in actual game play...i've seen some crazy maneuvers by both front and rear brakers that allow them to adapt to a situation just the same as a front&rear braker positions himself in the same situation.
I can't believe I ever Said this. Deleted.
i think for most of us its definitely more important to change our setup to suit our playing style more than trying to change our playing style to suit our setup. having said that...i'm freewheel now after only ever playing fixed front brake and the offensive advantages are unbelievable but it has weakened my defensive play due to lack of stopping power and flickability/skidding. fixed front brake is essentially dual brakes (especially if you are an ambidextrous skidder)...so that is why i think the switch will be helpful for me. as long as the rear brake skids before the front brake ever engages then maneuverability and turning at speed are a non-issue, i think. another positive to the dual brake to me is that i can skid onehanded whereas with my fixed i needed my hands on my bars (mallet up) to do my skidding (some of you can probably skid onehanded...not me).
dusty, if i could shoot like you and hop around and zero point turn like you if i used your setup...i would try your setup for sure...but the bike don't make the man, hahaha. i think when we are on the court against each other you should play freewheel brakeless...i hear its the new hot thing. what do you think?
important question is did you get rid of the bullhorns yet?
yes, i am finally retiring the bullhorns. it just feels so wrong to be on a bike in such an upright position...hate it so far but adapting. i feel like a grandpa on a cruiser. i'm running a flat bar and a riser would be an even more vertical posture. i can't believe you don't hear trash talked about your setup...where are your risers, hahaha?
I play flat bar with a short mallet. I've tried a few other setups on other bikes that run riser bars so they are upright, but it's not right for me. I don't really like the hunched feeling, it hurts my back after a while, but with my short mallet and since I've been playing for a year with the same bars, it's what I do well with.
Bull horns freak me out personally, I've tried and the altered hand position makes me feel out of control.
freewheel brakeless? check.
freewheel brakeless...i'm gonna hold you to that when next we meet on the court...it'll give you an excuse for that ridiculously low percentage shooting of yours during pickup, hahaha.
I'll give you both a dollar to see a one on one brakeless freewheel match.
I played fixed no brake for years. Added a front brake and thought that was swell. I was using the brake a lot more than I anticipated. When Cascadia came down to SF with predominantly free/rear setups I decided to give free/front a try. Free made me much happier and I can't imagine going back. Well, I can imagine it but it not on my Surly 1x1.
Front brake is fine until it gets damp out. I actually went back to fix/front in Portland because I simply could not play at all with a front brake on a wet court. I also switched to rear brake after crashing too many times playing grass polo. Grass is slick enough that front brake + a slight turn would overload the front if you were going fast and fast is when crashing hurts most. At this point I'm getting used to maneuvering on a locked rear and enjoying the hell out of it. We played grass in the rain a couple weekends ago -- flying 180s!! Tremendous fun!
The only advantage I could see to dual brakes for me would be maybe not shredding tires as much. That's the inevitable course with the rear brake only...because as soon as you need to stop fast at full speed what do you do? HOCKEY STOP!!! I go through tires too fast.
Bike Polo Ronin
for me, being able to a stop as quickly or quicker than an opponent without fish-tailing and having to correct my position is the real benefit. but yeah, less tire wear is a bonus.
When stopping really quickly it is often advantageous to change directions at the same time. Presumably you stopped because you no longer want to go forward.
with my setup:
pull brake half way, back brake locks up and i'm able to whip the bike around
pull brake all way, come to complete stop with little skidding / almost endo
I feel very environmentally minded as I skid through tires. Free boxing tires and shreddign the hell out of them not only reuses tires no one else will ride on but leaves less rubber in the landfill.
It's how we roll in cascadia. Green as fuck.
What are the disadvantages to the dual brake lever?
anybody use the odyssey monolever2 for their dual brake setup?
odyssey uses a giro cable so it makes it difficult to extend to the rear.
there are no disadvantages.
check out my friend hannes, he just got a completely new set up after trying my bike. he went from brakeless fixed to freewheel, dual brakes, riser bars. BOO YAH. One of three poeple i have converted in europe. Kelli also rides freewheel now too.
And yes, the monolever2 can be used. Just about any "modern" single speed brake lever can be used for a dual brake setup.
that setup is awesome. i'm jealous of the dual drive train setup. what are the tooth counts on there?
Indeed that is a crafty set up!
what's up with those cogs. is that a chain ring.
B O P
I have 44 and 38 chainrings
and 15 and 23 cogs
that means: 44/15 = 2.93 (because i was pissed of needing ages to the court)
and: 38/23 = 1.65 (but I think I change it to 38/21 because I think the 1.65 is a little bit to low)
"The Candy Colored Clowns"
Hey Hannes - what is your white rear hub with the Fixie Inc sticker on it? It looks like a cassette/fixie flip flop, with space for a total of four rear cogs? Brand? where do I get one???
edit: the one in this pic: http://www.flickr.com/photos/37624520@N05/3972148266/in/set-721576223700...
MinneaPOLOgasm ----------- ((((O
Im pretty sure its a fixie inc protype that he was testing. It never/hasnt gone into production. i think it was too expensive to make or something. Its a rad idea though, right!?
Looking good Hannes. Can't wait to see you playing on it.
Shame your London polo bike is still fixed.
a cheap alternative?
Piss Corner Polo is Forever. Storm Boys - Australian Champs '11.
oh man, hate html
HAHA, people keep posting these, when everyone I know who's ever used one says it's crap.
im a bit slow. sorry if its a repost.
I think a lot of us like the idea of this lever but it's just not made to withstand polo abuse...especially for those among us a bit accident prone...
I got the problem solver. Played on it for the first time last night. Seems good so far. I am very slowly bringing up the point at which my front brake makes contact to A. get used to it. B. cut down on ejector seat issues.
Another StL guy played last night with "The Pervert", that old BMX doubler I mentioned earlier. Works the same way as the Problem Solver except it's open, not contained in a tube. It may be cheaper, if you can find NOS.
let us know how the problem solver works out for you. if (when?) my double barrel lever breaks, i'll need a replacement option.
all you need is those two little peices.... so simple.
74 Miles per hour bitches.
that doesn't look quite the same as what hannes is running?
What is the name of that set up Hannes?
It is self built. i took a normal BMX lever and converted it. i tell you how it's done in paris...
It's easy but needs some time if you want to have it done well...
Ricky in DC went ahead and got bored with his drill press and made this:
slapdick bike polo - washington dc
that looks awesome. is there a product that he modeled that after? aka can i buy a setup like that?
Thats fucking awesome
I just copied Hannes' example (flickr link in a previous post). The anchor/rod is a piece of an old steel tent spike, cut down to size and drilled with two small holes for the cable to pass through. The stop is a piece of aluminum from an old chain tug/hanger that already had a hole in the center of it. I drilled two holes beside it, threaded it by forcing an old bolt through the slightly undersized holes, then used two derailleur hanger adjusters.
I have yet to play any games with it, but round-the-block testing is thumbs up. Oh yeah, the lever is an old Dia-Compe SS-7 that I had to drill through the lever blade so the rod could go through. At the other end of this setup is Avid Mech disc brakes, which are super easy to fiddle with.
I'll be experimentin'more with the setup to see what works best.
The Old 1973 1/2 Moto Guzzi Police bike(motorcycle) has the exact same system funny!
I never thought I would see this type of brake lever on a bicycle.
I think Im going to try it my self only with disc brakes. I know the rotors get bent easy, but the braking is unreal. As in effort/hand movement to full stop.
Ricky, you really have a Chris King headset on your polo bike? please tell me you won that. That break setup looks legit!
Skid & Destroy
Axles of Evil
Yo Dawg I heard you like redundancies so we got a PIN number for your PIN
Uh, yeah. Newish to the bike polo thang, so trying to figure out bike setup. Pinky previously served as an mtb. I could pop out the cups, punch off the race, press in new ones, yada, yada, but that's too much effort. I have shittier bikes, but this one works well for me at the moment. Also, the dropouts and fork are screwed up already, so I won't cry for too long if something breaks.
The build is a 29" On-One Inbred, a too-short Waltworks fork, 26" front wheel, 700c back, Avid BB-7, 165mm Origin 8 cranks...
nice setup. can you post a better picture of the dual brake setup?
funny, ive watched that log hop video numerous times in the past.
My bromate Kreminator's Dual brake setup. Ben's cycle (MBC) blog
check it here----------> http://www.benscycle.blogspot.com/
that's what time it is.
Yep, that's right. Until they make (or I make; those homemade levers above look awesome), the Problem Solvers cable doubler is the shit. Been running that all season. Love. it.
they need to board the mass-manufacturing train though. $40 (+ far worse here at £45) is pretty steep
Josh it's 45GBP for the 2 levers to 1 brake version.
The one you need is 30GBP - http://billys.co.uk/english/group.php?prod=bsqb-cd12
hmm ok i'm gonna give it a try. if it doesn't work, it's yours for £45
£4.85 - My final offer.
Freewheel polo bikes suck. Fact. Free yourselves.
MALICE for the people.
Freewheel polo bikes dominate the sport. Get with it or get left behind.
"ok Mr. Schwinn fucking Armstrong!"
hahahah damm chuck... freewheel kicks ass yo...
"We don't need no education"
the argument continues
It's been about two months and ~dozen games, and I really like this setup. If you know about hi-leverage (canti) vs long-pull (v-brake) levers, you'd know coupling SS-7 levers w/ Avid Mech disks is bad because they'd be too mushy. However, since it's coupled to two brakes, the extra leverage makes it work perfectly. Not too mush, and my finger isn't too fatigued after a night of polo. The Avid BB-7s rock because they allow super easy, tool-less fine tuning. Good thing, because the threads of the block that hold the adjusting barrels have stripped, methinks because of the crappy threading job. I'll prob make another block if the time, effort, and material are there.
anyone have some tips for installing a problemsolvers 1:2?
how long is your cable from lever to problemsolvers?
where does your problemsolvers sit?
does it float or do you have it strapped to something?
i just installed mine with about a 4" cable from lever to ps, and about 4" from ps to front brake. it floats in front of my head tube and makes the cable routing for the rear really steep and the cables interfere with handlebar movement a bit..
(1) hose clamp + (2) adjustment barrels = breaking heaven!
Bike Polo is Our Language,
Good Will is Our Motto,
Friendship is Our Goal.
Play More Bike Polo Together!
i can only say wow
Nice setup Kremin.
Smrtbee what the hell are you thinking!
Skid & Destroy
Axles of Evil
Smrtbee what the hell are you thinking!
braking down those pylons in the sky.
Nice setup Kremin.
x2. anyone know if problem solvers have problems with long pull brakes? Hit the bottom of the barrel?
Credo quia absurdum
thanks krem, i ended up putting it in a similar spot, about 1" off the lever. seems to work ok, but i'm having issues getting the cables setup to skid the rear before the front grabs with v-brakes.
smrtbee i'm surprised you can stop at all
nedder the problemsolvers pulls up to 3cm
I just switched from the problem solver to the home-made set up that Hannes has above. I ride on a 1st gen MTB, with cantis up front and a chainstay mounted u-brake in back.
I had thought that the problem solver just could not be dialed in fine enough to deal with the two brake styles. But, since taking it apart to install the home-made, I think what really happened was that I installed it badly and didn't keep the cables lubed enough. There was a kink in the cable going down to the front brake. I had it like Kremin and Ben did, with the problem solver hovering above the front brake fine adjuster on a very short length of cable housing.
Regardless of my bad mechanics, I really like the "Hannes" so far. It's way easier to fine tune from the lever with both adjusters right there, and replacing a cable would be a LOT easier using this vs the problem solver.
when/where/how can i buy this setup? polo specific dual brakes in 3...2...1...
Like we've all said in this thread; this set-up is home-made. It took me less than an hour to make the plate (which the adjusters thread into) and the rod (which the cable ends fit into) out of stuff in the bike shop scrap bucket. Having a drill press and a vise made it way easier, but it could probably be done with just a hand held drill.
I've talked with my machinist (the guy who turns the caps for all the St Cago mallet heads) about this as another St Cago product. Couldn't say what the price would be, because it would depend heavily on what materials we used (aluminum, steel, stainless). But I can say that there are literally hundreds of brake levers on the market made to suit a half dozen brake styles/pulls. Only some of those are made in a way that you can drill through just the lever for the rod and not the surrounding casting. That, plus personal preference, implies to me that it would be very hard to make this a universal, off-the-shelf-type item.
i never took shop class and i don't have that equipment (read: "i'm lazy and stupid"). if you or anyone makes it, i and most probably several others would buy it. as far as what lever to use, i trust your judgment (i'm able to adapt my personal preference). i run v-brakes, so i would need a long pull lever. at first you could do 2 models, short and long pull. then change the design/lever based on feedback. i'd love to test a prototype.
For v-brakes: use the FR-5 Avid lever or a similar v-brake lever designed to hold the cable head in the lever arm. Can't use a v-brake lever with the cable head linkage, like the Avid SD7. Also important: the cables ultimately run along side the body of the lever instead of through it, missing the fulcrum. The piece of rod stock that holds the heads of the cables has to be angled upward slightly and then held in that position. Pictures to follow.
I'll wait for labeled pictures to be sure, but from your description, I can't tell what you think the "also important" issue is.
The fulcrum is the the point around which the lever pivots. It's in the body of the brake lever (the part that clamps to your handlebars), not in line with your cables.
your try so hard to come off as a thinking person, and then you spew this garbage. you know what they say right?
I stand corrected. I'll re-phrase. The cables don't run through the arched cable guide. Therefore, the rod that holds the cable heads should be angled upward slightly for the proper pull.
Here are some pictures. In this first one, you can see the small screw in the cable channel holding the aluminum rod at an angle to maintain the proper pull:
Here's an overall, though Jason's pictures show the same set-up:
Now I see what you were trying to describe. Thanks for the pics.
slayers are only slayers if the slay out of town...
It's the wave of the future!
Solid. What type of lever did you use? Is the plate threaded?
why twice? just start with a x4 next time.
Just did the same with my v-brake lever. Two direct lines trumps the Problem Solvers Doubler. Vast improvement, all around.
the more i play with this set up i have set the front tighter and tighter. now it is set just as tight as the back. allowing me to skid still with a body adjustment while braking, but no unwanted skid outs. super awesome stopping power has its down sides. my rear wheel is taking a beating from fuckers who cant stop as quickly...
fuck yes, that's what i've been saying, people won't believe me. skidding can be great but most of the time it's not what i want.
Nice work Ben can't wait to see it in action at NA's.
a local bike shop ordered this lever for me. $12 bucks. seems sturdy, contrary to what I have heard. this is not the pyramid brand, but essentially the same thing.
the front stops so well that I think I may have to put some old hard brake pads on so I can stay on the damn bike. learning to modulate brake power is difficult to master.
not sure how to embed, so here you go.
So, I've now made about four levers for various people and Benschicago made his after the directions I gave him. I have started the design process for an actual production model of the dual lever from the prototypes I've built. I am going to see if a friend of mine will C&C me one. The plan is to ask Surly if they are able to make them for the polo world. The features of the new lever design include the versatility of being able to run with four types of brakes, V, U, Mechanical disk, and Caliper. there is one easy transition made for running pairs of brakes and Disk and V will be compatible as will U and Caliper since the lever actuation is the same. One of the features I hope to include is an enclosed area of brake body for the Barrel adjusters and cable routing parallel to the lever itself. I figure there are less things to get caught that way. I also plan on using beefy mountain bike barrel adjusters that won't get broken very easily. I'll let you know more as thing progress. Also the reason I would like to see this product produced not on a C&C machine eventually is the cost. I'd like the lever to sell for about $35 in the end. I think that most people could get together the money at that price point, whereas If I were to make them on a C&C they would come out to be more like $95 a piece. yeah, and stuff.
That sounds awesome. I would like to know what your solution is to making a universal or adjustable pivot point for all those brake styles is. If you feel like you could share without revealing your mfg secrets, of course.
If I'm reading you correctly, I think you'll be shooting for something like the Promax BL-47K.
These are for v-brake only, but could possibly be modified. No clue on their retail cost. You'd have to get with a bike shop and order 100 of 'em straight from Taiwan. I didn't see them in the QBP catalog.
Lastly, it's "CNC" not C&C. One is a music factory, the other is for actual factories.
I'm into this.
Awesome! lucky you crack me up. CNC yes, see I always just thought people were saying CEE and CEE. well those promax levers are Okay but we ordered one for an amputee client of ours and he ended up breaking it a short while later from just regular braking. :( so the need for a quality lever with dual break capability. The Answer to your question about how I am going to make an as you said universal dual lever involves a machined piece of aluminum rod two cee clips and two precisely placed holes. that is all I will say but given the number of dual levers I've made out there now I bet you will see one and imagine what a finished version might look like.
Thanks for the hook up timtim, very nice. Can't wait to see Gen.
does anyone know what do i do to use the giro odyssey lever with caliper brakes ? It's giving me a real headache, and i don't have a workshop to do a "hannes"
that is a really difficult hack. You have to machine a part to make it work out correctly. Atwell and I figured out a way to connect the giro end to another cable but we had to drill out the a piece of aluminum. It would be so much better if someone would just make the cables longer.
Sounds like it would be tough to have a universal or adjustable pivot point. One more thing to go wrong? Would it be better just to make separate models or would the cost be faaaaar too much?
Okay catfish, I'm going to move my mouth like this...
Separate models. Long pull, 30 bux. Short pull, 30 bux. Mounted on tektro 319 levers. 6mm plate for positive barrel adjustment/crash resistance. Plate is keyed into lever body for rigid mounting. Saddled pin for cable ends. Flush mount to lever body so you can get a wrench on the barrel adjuster jam nuts. All parts made of 6061 aluminum alloy.
So drunk from birthday polo. St Louis rules, all other cities drool. Going to bed. Will post more on this tomorrow.
I'll take one. Avid Digit 7 are long pull, right?
Yo, make that two for New Orleans.
Ahem, three for New Orleans please...
is this pretty specific to this lever? reason i ask is i like a hinged clamp on my levers. if yes, will the kit be for sale sans lever?
Yeah, it's specific to the Tektro. The plate is keyed into the lever body, and that keyway was measured from the lever.
That said; it's pretty likely that it would fit on other lever bodies. All the ones I measured at polo last night were about the same thickness. The keyway is 14mm wide and the key is just under 3mm wide, to fit into the cable slot. Measure up your stuff and let me know if it will fit.
The other problem you would have is drilling the 8mm through-hole in the lever. 1st, it has to be exposed. The part of the lever with the hole for the cable end in it goes into the lever body on some brakes. You need it to not do that, so the pin won't hit the lever body when the lever springs back to the starting position. 2nd, drilling that hole straight and parallel to the plate is a huge pain in the butt. We had to build a fixture to hold the lever in a vise, and bored the hole on the mill with an 8mm endmill. The levers are cast aluminum, which is pretty soft, and does not like being drilled with regular bits on a press.
If the hole ended up a little crooked, it probably wouldn't hurt anything, it just wouldn't look as nice.
This is a first run of this product. We've got some little tweaks in mind if there is a desire for a production run later on. Starting with different levers is on that list. I like hinged levers too. But I wanted to get these on the courts so we can get some feedback on the design and durability.
I am enjoying my pyramid, or whatever cheap brand, dual pull lever. they make them for trikes. it only cost me $12. Not only does it look elegant, but it holds up to abuse just fine. Not sure if they make them in both long and short pull, but I would imagine that they do.
it may not have the cool factor of DIY, but it looks much better and doesn't have any chunks of protruding steel. not to discourage DIY, just thought i'd reiterate.
I broke one of those Pyramid levers one game after I installed it.
It looks like the anecdotal evidence account is again balanced and neutral.
one thing I've come to dislike about the pyramid lever is that both of the cables are attached to a pivot, thus eliminating the possibility of tuning them to grab hard on the back on soft on the front. as soon as the rear grabs, all of the force is levered onto the front brake because of the pivot in the lever. is this making sense?
i use the pyramid lever with v-brakes and have my back brake super tight (almost rubbing on the rim) and my front brake super loose so that it only touches when the lever is fully pulled down. i can skid the back wheel easily. front brake isn't doing tons, basically just providing a little extra stopping power.
-my stomach is a pickle-
I made a very simple dual brake system using a Tecktro RL series lever. I like these levers 'cuz they're easy to use with one finger. I like the one finger trigger so i can keep the rest of the fingers on the bar. I looked at making the common lever system that has been fashioned, like the one Lucky makes but i didn't want to give up the lever i like so much.
I took the small allen key barrel adjustment screw that sets the lever to or from the bar right out and drilled a small hole in the outside of the lever to run a cable through and that was it. Done. It took five minutes to do plus running the cable. The only thing about this set up which i don't have a problem with is that there is no barrel adjustment at the lever, only at the brake. What i did was tighten the cable with the brake barrel adjustment all the way out so it was on the rim and then loosened off the the brake barrel until the desired the brake pressure was met. I've since experimented with the brake resistance at the brake barrel adjustment and found my sweet spot. The rear brake just remained as it was, the way i liked it and now i have front braking power.
I used this same mod on a Diatech Dirt Harry lever. I removed the set screw, used a drill bit of the same diameter as the hole, and carefully drilled through the brake lever blade to the cable head slot. I added an inline barrel adjuster to the cable housing, so both brakes are independently adjustable. It's a little tricky to feed the second cable through the hole I made, and the second cable head doesn't sit flush. Other than that, it was a quick and easy mod that took a few minutes and works quite well. It's a short pull lever, so I run it with mini v-brakes from Tektro.
First two pics are my mod, third pic is a stock Dirt Harry lever for reference.
Here is a pic of my dual brake setup I had running on my old polo bike and has moved to the new one as well. The lever is an old Dia compe short pull lever found hiding in the brake parts drawer at the shop I work at. It was already setup for dual brakes so I just had to install it. The first bike had road bikes and the second bike has BMX U-brakes.
this one is one of most popular lever, here in Japan.
dia compe still sell it. 2,100 JP yen.
you can buy it easy in tokyo. now, some bike shop know polo player need this type lever.
Riki@Tokyo Hardcourt Bike Polo
tokyobikepolo.blogspot.com / www.flickr.com/rikitko / twitter: RikiTokyo
Hey Matt, that brake setup looks awesome man. I particularly like the way most of the parts are tucked away inside the block
Did you machine it yourself, or did it come from something?
One of the things I'm worried about is the bare plate and barrel adjusters .. wouldn't want to crash into someone's hand with one!
mossko / Rob M
http://www.vimeo.com/ mossko | http://www.bikepolo.com.au/ | http://www.flickr.com/photos/mosskopolo
its an old dual pull lever, the shop he works at deals with recumbents and all types of weird shit.
Keep your standards low, and morale high.
hey rob, seems like you,re dual brake convert now! how times change.....polocalypse 4 eva.
Julian! Can you post your setup here so I can rip it off?
coffee, whiskey, beer. repeat.
Julian's double brake is rediculous dude. I saw it last weekend and to the best of my knowledge, it was a brake lever and a shifter component that forms with the brake lever. Like one of those regular mountain bikes where you change your gears with your thumbs but the part has been drilled out to allow a brake line so that you push the front brake with your thumb? it is crazy.
This is my setup, Odyssey Monolever m2 (short) run straight to two tektro long reach calipers.
agile for my size.
how do you order this? the m2 cables on their site are for gyros...yours are unmodified full length cables? called odyssey and they never got back to me...
The lever comes with a bunch of stuff. the barrel adjuster comes with multiple end styles, one for Odysseys upper gyro cable, and one for dual cables. just use the dual cable one and you're good to go. You literally need nothing that isn't included in the box. Niagra Cycles has the best price on these right now, around 20 bucks shipped. The only thing i DID do was use the cable style with a much smaller end, as they tend to fit in the lever body better IMO.
The lever is only slotted for one cable end... How did you seat the heads of the cables? You just sandwiched two road cables in there?
Hey Fashion, I can't seem to wrap my head around how this double lever is working.
From the odyssey site it seems like you need a cable like this for it to work:
Or can you just use two brake cables with "standard ends" somehow with the double cable adapter in the picture?
Also, do you have any idea where to get the smaller brake cable housing, I only ever remember seeing the "standard" cable size? Can you get it from Niagara anywhere on their site?
Also, which size did you actually get, Niagara lists Small/Med/Lrg where as Odyssey lists "Trigger/Small/Medium". Here is the pic from the Odyssey site.
The one i ordered, and the one shown, is the Small. The Trigger is the two-finger contour one and the med...well self explanatory.
I use the same lever on my bmx bike, and really like the small nature of it... but thats just personal preference. The only one i do not recommend is the trigger. They have always just felt weird to me, and with gloves on, the contours are too small for most fingers.
To clarify, the cable HOUSINGS themselves are standard, the cable ENDS are smaller, derailleur-esque size cable ends. You could also just use derailleur cables as performance wise, IMO, you wont notice a difference.
The insert that comes with the lever, to fit two cables, looks like the picture attached.
If you'd like, i'll take some better, clearer, more detailed pics tonight.
That would be great, I'm still having a bit of trouble visualizing it! Also, what size did you order from the Niagara site itself. They list Small/Medium/Large. I was just scared the "small" on Niagara was actually the Trigger size.
DallasW, I ordered the Small. I believe by Niagara's standards, Large would be the trigger.
here are the best pics i could get with my phone, hope they help.
Some of the M2s trail the cable out of the front of the lever arm (90 degress anti-clockwise from your second picture), these don't work as well as they only really have room for one cable (like the splitter you get in the pack of bits), two cables end up shearing off as they wear from rubbing against the lever housing.
They're robust levers though, good for roadie brakes, but obviously bad for v-brakes (as they're short pull).
i use the Odyssey dual brakes, and i love em. in LA we mainly play on a roller hockey rink, so rear skids are fun and effective, although they are cool, sometimes you can't stop fast enough. with the dual brake, i calibrated it to where it takes the rear first so i can still skid, and if it's an 'oh shit' moment, i pull the lever a little tighter, and then it takes the front. works great!
give blood. play polo.
A couple of us from the Waterloo, ON club built these a few weeks ago. The design is similar to what you'll see above, but thought I would share anyway. If you need any further details/pictures feel free to let me know.
Damn, round those corners son! Nothing like a chunk of 3/16" steel stabbing your knee...
Just found some interesting looking dual brake blocks from Oddessey (on chainreaction.com)
These could be modified to fit a regular brake.. just need to drill out a brake lever and put in a pin..
Damn cheap too
(P.S. yo Whitey! :D )
Yeah this was something Rik originally put together from the odyssey piece. Its what i was running.
I dont know how chain reaction ended up with it though...
Yea, I just installed one of these, and it is a great part for like $5. Saves time. The contoured side kinda sux, if it doesnt fit perfect, and I couldnt use a bolt that would thread into my barrel adjuster hole, but I used the supplied bolt, and it seems solid.
Fill in the contoured side with a presta valve washer. Worked great for me.
Yep, I'm using that very piece on my brake and it works sweet. Was one of the london lads who I got it from.
Nice one guys, could you send a photo through?
I'm guessing you kept the lock nut on to give you a flat surface
From RBP industries
The result is random the performance No
Can you tell us where did you find the second piece that you put on the brake lever... the one where cable ends ?
On chain reaction that's really cheap for the first piece... do you find the other on it too ?
Yes a cable end..I took it from a broken lever
i put this lever together a few weeks ago, its an old mongoose lever that was for a gyro. i pulled out the lever and replaced it with two levers from some old dia-comp cruiser levers. this type of lever is thin enough to fit 2 inside the mongoose housing as you can see. i have the top lever set up as my rear brake and it sits closer to the grip so i can easily just grab that lever and not the one connected to the front brake so i can skid the back wheel without engaging the front brake at all. if i want to stop more quickly, i can then pull both levers.
New ground! Are those short pull?
yeah, i guess they are short pull, they are designed for side pull or dual pivot center pull brakes. although, the levers in the new housing, they have a lot more travel, so they could work ok with v brakes. you could possibly drill and slot another mount for cable end and get more pull out of it. im running a paul racer brake on the rear and a 990 on the front and it works great.
Interesting- i was thinking about something similar, with a long 2-finger lever for the back, and a one-finger for the front.
Working on it.
I mocked that up real quick one time. I put the hump in the longer lever because my thought was that you could either pull the front or the back independently. Without a hump for your fingers you can only pull: one brake or both, and with it you can pull: one brake, the other brake, or both. But the whole thing seemed a bit impractical. I never really pursued it much.
Also I suppose you could invert the hump to make it under your fingers. That would probably lessen the risk that your fingers get caught and broken, plus it probably wouldn't look quite as stupid.
I would like to purchase one of these if you ever make it.
I think lucky is on that shit.
Isn't he always? Can't wait!
Would need a much bigger hump with lacross or hockey gloves, but this is exactly what I've been bothering lucky about for ages, and the ONLY thing that will make me stop using 2 separate levers.
You'll see. Unless you drilled out your eyes because they were too heavy.
As far as I know, Lucky is not considering adding a hump. He described it as you can either actuate one, or both.
i had one of the levers cut down so it was just for one finger, then after playing with it decided to go with the setup i have now. the second lever is really not in the way and i like that its a longer lever so its easier to grab. the only thing i dont like is that they flex more than i want them to.
found this on ebay:
Something you may find interesting.
not MY dual brake setup ... been trying to figure out how to build one, but it' a bit difficult without a lathe.
"A braking system incorporating such a combination of positive and negative feedback was developed by calderazzo. only the rear wheel is actuated by the rider. the rear brake is mounted on a lever pivoted near the wheel axis so that it carries forward during braking. In moving forward, it actuate (through a cable or hydraulic line) the front brake, with any reasonable degree of force multiplication. Accordingly, little effort need be required for strong braking to be obtained. At the point the rear wheel would start skidding, braking at the front wheel is automatically limited. In hundreds of tests with this system, in which testers made panic stops from high speeds on different surfaces, never did a rider even begin to go over the handlebars ... this promising design apparently died in patent litigation. As mentioned earlier, it could well be used to actuate other type of brakes (e.g coaster brake) in the front wheel." p.255-256 Bicycling science 3rd ed. by David Gordon Wilson.
Ive been trying to figure out how to build an "ABS"-type system into make my disk brake setup, to allow braking without the sudden jolt that can accompany it with "unplanned" stopping (as in not the skidding would I normally "plan" for, lean into, and do - but like when some fool crosses my path, and I dont want to kill them) almost sending me over the bars (esp dual disk)... let me know if you figure out something that could maybe go "in-line" on a cable, and is not brake specific
"... At the point the rear wheel would start skidding, braking at the front wheel is automatically limited. In hundreds of tests with this system, in which testers made panic stops from high speeds on different surfaces, never did a rider even begin to go over the handlebars ... this promising design apparently died in patent litigation. As mentioned earlier, it could well be used to actuate other type of brakes (e.g coaster brake) in the front wheel." p.255-256 Bicycling science 3rd ed. by David Gordon Wilson.
David Gordon Wilson sounds like he was getting paid by the word, and the publisher didn't fact check jack shit. (I'm speculating.)
Here's what would happen with this system. You would slow down pretty good with a medium grab. But as soon as a bit of weight came off your back tire, it would lock and the front woulndt do jack any more. (thus "never did a rider even begin to go over the handlebars ..." So, under most polo braking situations, this is the same as a back brake only, which doesn't slow you down for shit unless you're a bad ass like Eli and whip sideways at the same time.
And a coaster brake on the front wheel? I guess he envisions a chain connected to the pedals there, too. Or he meant drum brake.
Hope he got paid for the extra words. Hope the patent lawyers bought nice bikes with the fat money made on this apparent waste of time.
ps - why hasn't anyone revived a trash talk thread yet?
I picked up some BB7s and rotors at a swap meet. 160mm in the front at 140mm in the back. I used a problem solver with the stock lever. So far I like the setup and the adjustable brakes. Although getting to the inner pad adjustment is a pita with the wheel cover and spokes.
I found some cheap 8" round signs at Hobby Lobby and cut them up to make shields. They haven't been put to the test yet though.
I need to get some new pads and I am picking up the MDT-1 tool so I can take the caliper apart and get it a little smoother.
Janky first shot at a dual set up
i use this fucker, got it for 2 dollars at bike coop down here
its a gyro brake lever that was marketed as MONGOOSE but i found it at http://www.leechi.com.tw/index.php?language=en&mod=2&class=2&page=6
i am using it with v-brakes and it works awesome, it also works great with calipers or whatever
i found it for sale! its way better than that pyramid shit brake lever, feels better to brake, and it wont break in two ever
this is my cable settings with w pull brake lever. (st.cago lever for V with flexie V (dia compe))
What's happening with the St Cago dual brake manufacture? One of us in Montreal uses one, I use a primitive variation, and a bunch of people SHOULD be using one. The Paul component lever is nice but expensive, and is sadly not a hinge type mount. I'd buy a St Cago mech, anyone else?
Outside lands festival stole our pitch this weekend so Blanca got some new kit:
Pretty simple surgery to remove the locking mechanism. Still needs to be dialed but so far so good.
Magura HS 24
actually any of them will work, but the ceaper HS11 have plastic levers and pistons and are more likely to break...
of all setups I have been riding (front brake only, rear brake only, paul double lever) i like this the most
superior stopping power
no dialing: same pressure on both rims, so the back blocks pretty soon; the front never: just enough power there to stop really hard, but not enough to ever be able to force an endo.
first setup is quite sketchy, but once it is done it's good forever.
Oh: I forgot to say: it's a hydraulic rim brake
hope your gonna bring a bleed kit and replacement seals with you everywhere
I can just see this being a problem mid game, "I need a technical to bleed my brakes!"
i have a second pair, which is already set up to the bike. so changing the whole thing takes between one and five minutes (depending on how fast i get the grip off the handlebar)
but that's just if something breaks through physical impact.
it's a closed low pressure system and if nobody rips the cables off, they work as new even if they were 15 Years old (which they actually are) and nothing needs to be done.
put this one on in february and hadn't so adjust anything since then.
"(depending on how fast i get the grip off the handlebar)"
locking grips, yo
This is something I've been thinking about doing for a little while. How do you mean the front locks almost never? Surely this is bad, no?
Also have you thought of running the second cable from the bleed nipple on the lever rather than from the frontbrake? I was thinking it would be more crash resistant - though would require a forced-bleed rather than gravity bleed.
On another note: It's pretty easy to build a hydraulic splitter - I have one on my trials bike, it's made using an old crank-arm a drill and a tap.(i'll take a photo when I get home)
I've been trying to find specs for hydro disc fluid displacement as it would be pretty easy to set up a dual hydro disc system if you had those specs and adjusting the could easily be one using the credit-card trick.
This has been abit of a braindump
This has been abit of a braindump,make of it what you will.
p.s your bike is lovely
Thanks. I love the bike too ;)
actually this has become quite an tech-nerdy reply so here's a warning :)
1. basically you're distributing your finger power to two rims instead of one. therefore you need twice as much finger power. I can lift my rear wheel, if I want to, but I have to pull the lever VERY hard (and use two fingers instead of one) and push it a little (like leaning forward) - still there's a lot of stopping power on the front wheel. just that little not enough to do unintentional endos.
2. Yes, I have, but I do consider this the more crash-resistant setup for the lever being much more exposed and weaker - at least I have seen them break way more often than brakes (goes also for "normal" brakes)
plus, the cables and nipples on the brake are kind of behind the brake booster and the receiving pistons (which are close to indestructable) - also the cable goes one time around the fork before coming to the front brake, kind of loosely, so the Front could spin two times in each directions before there's force on the cable.
besides that it is not much of a difference wheather ther are three or four cable endings at the front brake.
Actually in an earlier setup I also had the cable from the lever go through the fork shaft, so it was "truely barspinnable" but that meant that i couldn't replace the whole thing w/o cable cutting and oil on the court, so i just let the cable from the lever "hang there"
At some point I want to get one of the very new HS33 Levers as they have a two-screw clamp and can be removed w/o taking the grip off, which also means I can shorten the cable to the front brake even more as it has been caught up in another bike one or two times.(nothing happened though; they are pretty strong anyways)
(Also if people see two cables coming from the lever they instantly realize it s/th unusual. w/ only one cable most people don't even get it until the thirt or fourth look at it :) )
3. That's rad. actually i don't see any benefit of that in this setup, but a good thing to know. - of course: Just a piece of metal, three holes and then cut some threads in, and the splitter is ready. ingenious and so easy.
4. I have doubts that that will work w/ most disc brakes since they are mostly open systems w/ the "liquid management"* in the lever an not in the brakes. so if you just used a hydraulic splitter, the brakes would just lock up after one brake. you'd have to build a whole new lever-piston i guess.
what might work is if you take a four-piston brake (Like Gustav M) apart and lock two pistons on each brake and then connect both to one lever. but that involves a lot fucking around w/ brakes, which is always bad.
it would easily work though, if you can find an old closed-hydraulic-system disc (like Sachs Power disc, --> I think that's pre-IS2000 so one more trouble front)
one more comment on double discs:
There IS actually a double hydraulic Disc-Brake out there. Hard to find and expansive, but there is:
It is called Magura BIG, and is basically a Magrua Julie, but featuring a different lever (left&right)
As it was made for tricycles and shit, it is not distrubuted through their bike-department, but through "magura industrial" so you have to dig up a tricycle specialist that actually HAS it and then convince them that they give their OEM stuff to you.
I belive though, i did once see the whole brake on a british webshop for like 250,-BP but I am not sure about that.
one last comment on discs though...
I think, disc-brakes are superior to rim brakes especially for one reason: the rim (toghether w/ the tyres) being THE most weight and strenght sensible part of the whole bike it's kind of stupid to use it as a replacement part which involves using up the surface material.
however that applies not to polo as the rims and wheels always give up way before they're "breaked" down**. plus rim brakes are way more resistant AND more out of the way in terms of crashes.
So I'd say Rim brakes are way to go for polo, even though in every other application discs are better.
*I have no better word, sorry
** If they don't they are heavily overbuilt and should be replaced w/ s/th lighter :P
oh god, what an epic post:
actually this has become quite an tech-nerdy reply so here's a warning :)
Thank you. I love this thread.
I've been daydreaming about this for a while ...
The proportioning valve reduces the pressure to the rear brakes. Regardless of what type of brakes a car has, the rear brakes require less force than the front brakes.
The amount of brake force that can be applied to a wheel without locking it depends on the amount of weight on the wheel. More weight means more brake force can be applied. If you have ever slammed on your brakes, you know that an abrupt stop makes your car lean forward. The front gets lower and the back gets higher. This is because a lot of weight is transferred to the front of the car when you stop. Also, most cars have more weight over the front wheels to start with because that is where the engine is located.
If equal braking force were applied at all four wheels during a stop, the rear wheels would lock up before the front wheels. The proportioning valve only lets a certain portion of the pressure through to the rear wheels so that the front wheels apply more braking force. If the proportioning valve were set to 70 percent and the brake pressure were 1,000 pounds per square inch (psi) for the front brakes, the rear brakes would get 700 psi.
For more information on master cylinders and combination valves and related topics, check out the links on the next page.
edit: This is a good read. looks like we need a low pressure light weight version. http://www.stoptech.com/tech_info/wp_proportioning_valves.shtml
really an intriguing thought.
the center of mass of a bike is so high, that hydraulic brake system using such a valve would just equal up to front brake only. as I said w/ the brakes (not) being set to 50:50 it is just so that the rear doesn't lift off the ground. any more power to the front would just get the back wheel in the air and leave you w/ front brake only.
would only be interesting for low speed, slow deceleration, or Tandems.
Here is mine. I wanted a way to either have both or just the rear brake. Pulling the silver lever applies the rear brake only, or pulling the black lever will apply the front brake, and squeeze the silver lever applying the rear brake at the same time. I might grind off some of the black lever.
If I ever feel super ambitious, I might just machine a non-ghetto version of this that would guarantee the levers stay aligned.
Rear brake or both.
Combination of choice: Smash + Bang
Nice set up failures art. I just set mine up in a very similar manner, and came on to the forums to post a pic, and there was yours.
This picture is just a fit up picture. For example the front cable needs to reroute over the right side not left of the rear cable.
I am swapping from the 2:1 set up to the 2 lever set up. My front brake is the inside the bar brake, and only for the front wheel, and only for in goal, standing.
I use BMX high rise bars, so I had to hand ream the bar end with my die grinder using rotary files and stones. I did not want to change my bars, and it wasn't worth buying a reamer for a $10 pair of bars. Typically in a hand done set up inside a tube with a die grinder I have about a 20% too thin error area so I will be adding an outer sleeve to reinforce the entire left grip area.
Now I am hunting down .900 ID something to cover that area, and get a grip over.
I can get by fine with my rear brake playing.
So this happened to my doubler i bought from lucky over a year ago. Now i want to replace it with an identical brake lever, but ive been to 4 bike shops and no one can figure out what the brand on this lever is. Anyone know? Or know of an identical lever?
The brand is Black-Ops, you can get 'em through J&B importers.
There we go! thank you goodly sir
Hi, Everyone !
Could you help me ? I am trying to figure out the size and threading of the barrel screw that is used in a brake lever.
I have just seen you posted a picture of a brake lever conversion to twin cable. What is the screw standard ?
(the one that holds the DIY metal plate to the lever)
All I know the screw is close to 7 mm in diameter, but it isn't metric.
P.S. I come from Europe and stay in China at the moment, so, everything besides metric is total voodoo for me...
Appreciate any help :-)
in chain we trust
it depends on the lever; barrel adjusters come in different sizes.
and what about Dia-Compe Dirt Harry lever in particular ?
Can't find specs on the www.
I did one of these up for one of the guys here in portland, I just went to the hardware store and got a 7m bolt for it the threading is metric but its not 1mm its more like 1.25 tpi or 1.5 tpi. if you have access to a thread pitch gauge you could easily find out, or you could just go to wherever they sell bolts near you and bring it with you and compare the two threads by placing them together. no gap means good thread match. the bolt is 7mm metric and the threads are metric pitch for sure.
but you still use TPI, why not TPC. jeeze Tim.
Here is my brand new brake set. I have always run dual hydraulic disc brakes. I used to have two master cylinders connected together with hoses all over the place. I ran that for about two years. The only problem was that I'm a little ocd about cockpit tidiness and also, I kept cutting my left thumb on the steel bracket I made. Through a LOT of research, internet stumbling, and trial & error, I developed this custom dual hydro disc polo brake kit in collaboration with Bengal Performance. They are based on the Helix 7.5. They were built to my exact specifications and thoroughly tested in Bengal's R &D lab before the final product was sent for my approval.
My kit uses an oversized master cylinder and lever, a special machined T-block fitting, a hydraulic gyro, and two dual piston calipers. I weigh 210 and this thing stops on a dime. It provides a 50/50 distribution.I am able to easily do front wheel pivots into goal as well as skid just by slightly changing my position on the saddle. The fact that the front hose runs through my steer tube and the rear goes through a gyro, I have no hose flexing of any kind and there is no way for a mallet to hook the lines. In theory, these brakes will never need any type of adjustment or wear out(with the exception of the pads).
I have played on it two Sundays now and I just love it. Now just to master the barspin wheelie shot.....
If you can dream it, you can do it!
this is the polo bike of the future..
x2. So jelly.
What's the difference between this and a standard helix 7.5? How much did it run you? A person in my club is considering this.
The only real differences are hose length and the fact that my kit comes with two standard helix calipers. The 7.5 normally has one mirrored caliper for trike and pedicab applications where you need one left and one right.
Ah i see. Makes sense. So if my guy was interested he'd have to special request from helix as well? I'll forward him this thread.
I am the only us distributer of Bengal products. Just an fyi, Bengal makes atomlab's brakes too so I guess you could compare prices with that. It's also the same gyro that atomlab branded as their own which, unfortunately, isn't for sale anymore due to lack of interest. Enter bike polo.
Hey thanks for mentioning this to your bud. He contacted me and ordered a set. With 180mm rotors to mix and match with 160s to experiment with front/back stopping power.
whoa. would be cool to have a proportioning valve in the t-block to adjust braking. and hydraulic gyro??? how much is that?
I had origianally planned on putting a proportioning valve in the T-block. There is definitely enough meat to do it. Once I got it hooked up though, me and everyone who has ridden my bike has thought that it is perfect. I'm not even going to mess with it. And yeah, the gyro is the bees knees.
I am currently selling this kit for $175 pre-bled without the gyro. $240 with gyro. If the whole $240 kit is purchased, it will still come pre-bled without the gyro attached. The reason for this is because A) you will need to dismantle the brakes in order to run through your hollow top cap anyway and B) since you will have to bleed the brakes anyway, you might just as well cut the rear hoses as snug to the bike as you can to prevent the owned getting hooked by bikes, mallets etc.
The gyro can be purchased separately for $75.(it takes dot 4 oil though so make sure your brakes are compatible)
Extra pads can be purchased for $15/caliper
Shipping will be actual depending on where you live.
These prices will go up. I currently have the only set in existence. I guess you could say this is an introductory price to get some sets out there.
that is what I have been thinking.
The 50:50 distribution is perfect for bike polo. no need for such a valve. More to the front equals front brake only, as teh rear just goes up, and if you set it to more than 50% to the rear, you would giving up the advantages of the (hydro) front disc.
nevertheless, being the first one featuring and building this setup, you HAVE to try it . :)
the gyro is actually a copy of this one :P
which has been out there for years ;) also is also available for mineral oil.
I have actually also thought about using one, but i opted against it, as I wanted to be able to replace the whole brake in case of a damage. My brakes are pretty strong, but everything eventually gives up in polo. If you have spare parts with you, they will less likely though (murphy's law)
The trixer is awesome. Trickstuff has a lot of cool prototype type things. The trixer is a lot more expensive though. At least in the US. If you can even find it. The one I have is the same one as the AtomLab gyro. Which is no longer available. Pity. But I think I might have mentioned that..
In your case, running rim brakes, a gyro wouldn't be able to work. Unless you ran both your lever-to-front hose through the steer tube and then ran your front-to-back hose back up through the steer tube again and then into a gyro. Wow, that is confusing to think about.
As for replacing broken hydro bits, I don't think it will be a problem. In the three years that I've run hydro discs on my polo bike, I've broken a lever(just the blade though which I swapped out in 1 minute) and I also broke my front hose due to the hose twisting around and kinking all the time. That took 3 years of constant abuse to happen though. It's what prompted me to design this. The way that all of my hoses are run with this new setup, they are tight and snug to the frame and never flex. The only thing that can really go wrong is a collision so bad that it actually smashed my caliper in half or something. But if something could do that, chances are my whole bike is toast. And probably me too.
Well, i could also use the bleeding hole of the lever and have two cables coming out of there. if I wanted that.
i have broken two HS 11 levers, but they are made of plastic.
since I have moved to the old HS22/33 levers which are pretty massive I havent had a defect either.
i don't thing i can assume what weired way the destruction of parts sometimes goes...
my assumption is just, that IF something breaks, then in the middle of a tournament.
but having a spare brake with me is kinda easy w/ the prices for them being between 40&80€ on ebay germany. So basically i paid for the second kif less then most people pay for their normal setup
--Wow. the last thing I had in the back of my head was like 80€ für the trixer. but that's from a couple of yeas ago. probably @120€ now
Woah! I just checked it out again. The Trixer is $191.00 usd. And that's not even counting shipping! Yikes.
the gyro is actually a copy of this one :P
which has been out there for years ;) also is also available for mineral oil.
I think the Trickstuff one actually came out later. But aside from that, I can now get my gyro for mineral oil too. Same price as my Dot 4 gyro. $75..
I bought a Paul dual brake lever and cailpers. With my amateur mechanic ability i got it set up in an afternoon.
Works so well i'm tempted to put a Paul dual lever on my commuter bike.
Paul lever FTW.
After about a year of fucking around with shitty levers, double levers, lever/shifter combo, I paid $65 and all problems solved. The right lever makes all the difference. Spend the money.
I got a Paul lever this winter to replace my home made Dirt Harry rig. Spent a ton of time setting it up. Went for a few rides to test it out, and was very disappointed with it's performance. The lever felt really stiff, for lack of a better word. I'd have to squeeze really hard to use it, and I'd still come to a slow stop (yes, I had it on the right pivot setting for my brakes). It didn't feel comfortable for my fingers either - the brake blade has sharp edges. I also installed it on the bend of my handlebars, which probably didn't help.
I ripped it off and went back to my Dirt Harry mod. So much better. The brake blade is comfier on my fingers, the lever feels snappier, the cables are easier to fine-tune, and it's designed to be installed on the handlebar bend. And I can stop the bike.
Maybe I'll try the Paul again this summer. But for now, I'm staying away.
I'll take that lever off your hands if you want.
I found it very uncomfortable too. If I had one on my bike, I would grind down the edges a little. It feels like you're squeezing square stock. I was kind of shocked that they made it like that actually.
It is by far the cleanest, most practical mechanical dual lever I've seen though. I thought it stopped me ok too.
I know what you mean by the feel/angle-iness/sharpness of the lever itself. As for performance my experience has been the polar opposite. Position on your bars DOES matter. Don't set it up on the bend in your riser bars. That will affect performance.
Your experience is the first of it's kind that I've heard. I'm totally happy with mine.
I don't have one of these yet, but I've oogled over and ridden a few my friends' setups and here are my observations....
* Silky wonderful control setup : clean cable lines with v-brakes good springs and no gum in the brake. Probably the same mechanical discs.
* Great stopping / control but gave me a ring finger blister in one good game without gloves : linear pull again with v-brakes but kinky in places inner cable and some tight turns in the cable routing.
I think the edge on the lever feels pretty positive, actually. It's just in the v-brake mode, you end up with a lot of pressure just to yank 2 cables (long pull style) through housing. Anyway, if I had advice for people who don't have them in silky wonderful mode already, I'd say start with new clean cables and housing and don't route the front through the steerer tube. Also, you can move the pivot pin for short pull cantilevers so that could minimize some of their housing stiction.
Anyway, I've got a serious polo boner for Bobby's dual hydro / gyro setup. I see spun bars in an intense game as the achilles heal of any cable brake setup. And cable gyros / steerer routing just add a sh1t ton of sticky pull that I don't like. Anyway. There's my observation rant. Expecting Blokkar to make fun of it now.
Hydro just seems like a bad idea for a polo bike, mechanical disc seems like the way to go for a disc set up. Unless you've got a whole other pre-bled ready to go brake set on the side lines you are gonna need a loaner bike to finish a tourney. Plus if you break a line you will spew hydraulic fluid all over the court. Or you can just have cables that can be changed in a matter of two or three minutes. As for your housing problems get some nokon housing and your troubles will end.
Yea, this seems to be the number one complaint among skeptics. Understandably too. It isn't as easy of a task to swap out hydro lines as mechanical......for most people. This reason is because people aren't as familiar with hydraulics.
All I can really say though is that all I need is a length of hose and some dot 4 fluid. It's not that big of a deal. Also, because friction is not an issue, I can get my hoses so snug to my frame that there just is.t a way for anything to get snagged(unlike cable housing). Also, they never need maintenance. They will work the same in 10 years as they do now(unlike mechs).
It's definitely not for everyone. While I feel like most polo players have come from road bikes and fixies(in Cleveland, at least), I come from a mountain biking background. The day I moved from xtr v brakes, which are arguably the best, to Hayes 9s, which aren't even that great, I never looked back. I just like the friction-free feel of hydraulics too much.
don't forget: cat litter a broom and dust pan could make quick work of a court spill. dirt works too if that's all is available.
I'm going to start with better cables/housing, and saving $$ ... unfortunately right now I'm looking at 90% new bike to make the jump to disc, hydrolic or otherwise.
If emptied completely, the amount of brake fluid in my entire system wouldn't even fill a thimble.
And yeah, it's hard to justify buying a new frame and fork just so you can switch to disc brakes. Just something to consider if you're ever in the market for a new frame anyways.
Yes, the Paul is the way to go.
I found the same observations at first about the big flat edge, but bar position *and* angle are both really important. I also adjusted the little pin that brings the lever in slightly and that helps as well. Spend some money on cables too, this makes a huge difference too. As much as we brake in polo, good cables is the cheapest thing you can do. I use Odyssey Linear Slic.
hardcourtbikepolo dot org
I messed around on my team mates bike who has a Paul duplex on his bike and I don't really like it, but not because it is shoddily made. The construction is solid. I think I don't like it because they work the same as a cross-top interrupter lever, in that the cable end is isolated and the housing is compressed. I just prefer the opposite where the the housing is isolated and the and the cable is pulled by the lever, small difference but a difference none the less. I guess that means i'll be modifying levers until the end of time.
Also, rocking a home made lever just feels gangsta.
I would love to have hydraulics, but on the Orign 8 Del Pasado frame it would take a pretty complex little milled piece of steel to even mount an adapater.
The rear fittings are large hollowed out affairs, the usual adapter would only work after making another adapter to give that adapter a place to mount.
I would still run two handles like now. One for the front in goal, one for stopping on the court. My skill levels are still low anyway, so the "be all end-all of single doubles" is just going to help me do another shoulder/face plant on the concrete.
I think everything I am seeing sure is well though out though.
Finally got my brakes exactly where i want 'em. I put on dual avid single digit ultimates, with nokon housing, and paul brake boosters. The cable tension is ballanced so if i want to skid the rear end i stay back on the saddle and if i lean forward the front wheel locks. Not a cheap brake set up they are stupid strong. The boosters came recently as i noticed that the seat stays deflected when i pulled the brakes, they also help protect the calipers.
Anyone running dual disks tried or heard of this. http://www.hygia.com.tw/liveshop/index.php?route=product/product&path=49...
If you look up the thread a little, you can see my setup. It is similar to this but mine are from Bengal. I love it. I struck a deal with them to be the exclusive US distributor. Bengal made them polo specific for me with proper hose lengths and most importantly, 2 STANDARD calipers. Trike sets have one reversed caliper intended for a right mounted disc on the left wheel. Also, instead of using smaller piston calipers with a standard lever like hygia did, Bengal made a lever with a larger master cylinder and a longer lever blade so they stop hard without much force. If you are a lighter rider, this might not matter to you. I am 6'1" and 200+lbs so I need a lot of stopping power.
I've also tried making this setup myself using standard pieces from Hayes but my hand got fatigued after a bit from having to pull the lever so hard.
If you try the Hygia set, I will be very interested to see how they perform. They certainly look cool.
Jason in Charlottesville seems to be enjoying his dual brake setup from you. i know he's not on here very much if at all, but it's getting used, that's for sure.
Also, I'll be at ESPI in June so you can check them out. And I'll have a few sets for sale.
i can confirm that this brake setup is DOPE! easily the strongest brakes i've ever seen. period.
I didnt see one of these on here yet so I figured I'd post mine. Its a R. disc hyrdo and a F. disc mech.
Regular pull is rear and down on the brake lever is front. So you can use both at the same time or independently.
Still getting used to it but it is pretty sick.
Been thinking about using one of these for a while. how did you get past the front brake being indexed as if it was a mech?
Timtim actually showed me, but its really easy to do. All you need to do is drill out the racket pin. Take off the shrouds, and you'll see where the derailleur connects to. There will be a pin, with a spring and teeth, in front of it. Drill that out and knock out the racket part and your good to go.
could you post a photo of the end result? Also what cable did you run out of the shifter? an sis shift cable or a small ended brake cable of some type?
SKID ROW // ACT LIKE YOU
Yea - that probably gives more cable pull? I'll open it up again to look at the implied Timtim trick and try it. I'd be happy to see any example shots.
But anyway, the way I'm rolling it, I just "shift to the big ring" and it pulls a derailer cable connected my back brake. I switched that to a cantilever for the shorter pull you get out of this hack. But it's still a bit squishy from that lever so I'm looking for anything to help this out.
I saw Polony and Woadie rolling something like this so I aped the idea with a craigslist purchase and went front brake on the main lever (as I like it), and the rear brake with the shifter and a housing splitter for the other side because I like normalish brakes on my bike. I'll take a picture because this is confusing and I wrote it.
yeah post some pictures... i'm beyond obsessed with this setup...
"rubber side down boys"
I won't be trying the Timtim trick for a few weeks but I'd really like to see that if someone has closeups and its known to make for less squish. Here's what I've got. Craigslist keywords XTR M960 Shifter brake levers dual control. This is the mechanical brake version. (my mechanical discs are 559mm). The other confusing stuff you see on my bars are a paul thumbie with an old suntour downtube lever, and a paul housing splitter on the right, and some big fucking zip ties to keep it all from crimping when my friends crash me out. ;)
so you have 3 "levers" for the rear brake...
haha this is the most confusing brake setup i've ever seen! awesome!
the brake setup is confusing, but what is going on with the zip ties? i'd also like to see what's going on near the back brake.
Ah - you mean the right lever. I'll get a better photo of the bars. The bikes in the basement where the light sucks; waiting on a freewheel replacement before coming back out of the cave. (If anyone gets a IRD screw on 5/6 speed make sure it's the mark 4, ... if it has "M3" on the biggest cog it will blow up in 1-12 months of polo.)
There's a V brake cable bend in there. The other option is to have the housing go straight out. It's a little less awkward with the V brake part in there I think.
Those of you listening at home should be aware that Devin is a giant flying demon on court. No one crashes him out. Sometimes we fail to get out of his way. He's great at teaching people to pass, because you sure as hell can't go around or through him.
And obviously, a creative mo fo. The zip tie bar spin protection system is an interesting one. Has anyone ever mounted a steering dampener on a bicycle?
i was actually thinking about that this week. as i installed a spring dampener on my girflriend's bike to stop basket weight jack-knifing, i thought hm.... maybe i should get one of these for my polo bike..
Great idea - how does the beef factor look?
The real solutions is the Cleveland hydro gyro: just let it spin!
Drizz - This is my cheap hack for preserving good cables with what I've got already. Here is a full photo though before my Shriver is My Spirit Animal sticer and switching out the Brooks.
Joel - a steering dampener would break likely leaving flesh tearing protrusions. You could introduce stiction as a damper, but the amount you'd need to prevent a bar spin in a crash would suck for steering. I hear that some frame designs have a fork stop, but I'd worry about destroying such a frame or fork in a crash (not to mention I don't have the time / money / space for another frame).
teflon- Yea, 3 total levers. The back brake can be got with the right lever, or pushing the left shifter down.
ps I'll take Joel's interpretables as a compliments of my athleticism and highball hustle. ;)
Sorry for getting back to you so late guys. Didnt realize anyone was asking about the brake on here. Ok so its real easy to do this actually, Its literally removing one pin(drilling out is the easiest way without damaging the rest of the housing) connected to the ratchet mechanism. Drill it or cut it out with a Dremel or do what I did and use a drill-press to drill in deep enough to be able to pull out the pin. Once the pin is out the ratchet mechanism w/ the spring will pop out with it, and your done.
Now as far as the brake cable is concerned, I am actually using the derailleur cable for my brake cable. Well actually, I switched out the derailleur cable for an old school one that is thicker in dia., greased it up and pushed it through the brake housing(Jagwire its tougher), but the stock cable will work as well. Or Timtim told me that if you grind down a brake cable to fit in the slot it would work just fine. I didnt have the patients so, I went the derailleur route, hasnt streched on me yet. One thing that I do have to note is, that I dont have a travel agent on it yet. So my front brake is not as strong as I would like it, but it works very well as my "oh shit" when my rear is not enough. It brakes hard enough that I can do endo-turns with a long pull but its not easy to do it in play, because the pull is to long to were the brake really grabs. With the travel agent it should have the stopping power I wanted in the first place, will be done here a few days.
I will post pics here in a minute. Sorry in advance if the pics dont turn out ok. My camera has disappeared and my iPhone camera is garbage.
This is the best I could do. But I will try to explain in more detail and in steps.
First you remove the outer shrouds. Their is 3 of them you must remove, if you look at the front of the brake(as its attached to the handlebar) you'll see 3 screws. Remove them and the 3 shrouds will come off, the last shroud has the derailleur cable going through it so make sure your cable is free and not tied in to anything.
After you remove the 3rd shroud you'll see where the pin(that I pointed at with the drill bit) is connected to. That is where and is the pin that you have to drill out.
You actually dont have to remove the pin, as you can see mine is still there. What you have to do is drill it out enough to get the ratchet mechanism out. Mine is not there but it will become clear what that piece looks like. I started with a small bit as a pilot hole and went up in size in I think 3 steps(the pin is harden steel or I had shitty bits) cause it was a bitch to try to drill with the bigger bit. Finish off with a bit that is the size of the pin or slightly bigger. Drill til you get through the ratchet and it will pop right out.
Put it back together and your good to go.
This is the only way that you can do it without taking the brake further apart. With all those other little tiny part that thing has, FUCK all that jaz. Hope this helps out.
So I know this isnt the same lever but I think you can help. Ive got the shrouds off but I dont know what to drill out. I can see the teeth, I can see what the cable is held by and I can disconnect the springs that make it shift down, but itll still shift up. Any ideas?
drilled 1 hole for barrel adjuster
drilled 1 counter-sunk hole for cable end.
Digging this setup. Do you still get good braking power with the cable being soo close the pivot point?
Strike hard. Strike first.
yeah it works great, plenty of braking power.
I have the rear brake on the factory barrel, and the front on the added barrel. I have not tried to switch them but I might, just to see the difference.
Anybody of see or use one of these? I'm wondering if it is worth the money.
Paul Components Duplex lever
Worth every god damned penny. I love mine.
Winston Salem NC Bike Polo
I've had mine for a few months and been satisfied with it. I particularly like being able to independently dial the front and rear balance and that I can unhook the front or rear brake to deal with a broken spoke, etc, without losing any performance in the other brake. My only complaint would be the lack of a return spring in the lever itself. I have some persistent friction in my rear brake cable and the spring would help to alleviate the symptoms of that issue. Certainly the best dual lever I've seen so far.
Is your cable housing cracked?
That's a super common problem, for any brakes. The polo can cause brake lines to get yanked and break the housing. Broken housing and/or bent cables will cause friction until replaced.
keep the barrel adjusters fully screwed in. Adjust the cable at the calipers rather than using the adjusters. Adjusters are very weak and won't stand up to anything if they're screwed out away from the body of the lever.
And yes, these levers are fantastic and even better with Paul brakes. Front brake is all you need to stop. Having rear support helps a ton with goal tending and hopping around, imho.
yep! best i have used by far.
A few of the players in Thunder Bay use these and like them a lot. Personally, I think it would be weird having a lever worth more than my entire bike.
i have been using the paul lever for a few months. its great, my only qualm is that sharp edges of the lever look cool, but it starts to hurt your fingers even with gloves on.
I have used a paul lever for maybe 4 months now, and I think it has been the most elegant solution. Its a bummer that it is "crosstop style" (pushing the housing, rather than pulling the cable), and lacks the hinged clamp crosstops have - but it works better than other janky homebrew solutions Ive tried.
Regarding cracking or bending of housing - get some Jagwire "flexible brake noodles" (http://jagwireusa.com/index.php/products/v/Linear-Pull_Noodles_Boots) for both ends of your housing/cables; they allow the cable to slide well even around tight bends, and have plenty of give to prevent that kinking or crushing of housing. I run my front brake through my steerer and a few tight bends to keep it short, and doesnt bind at all.
I also have a problem with the sharper corners of the lever, but I plan on sanding it to a round x-section soon.
Or Nokon for tight corners.
Also has the bonus of the internal teflon housing, meaning you get very smooth brakes.
And it looks cool.
Whats also great about the flexible noodle is that when the cable does eventually kink, the kinked part slides with much less resistance though the noodle compared normal housing. So much so that you wouldn't even know its kinked.
Both my front and rear cables are kinked pretty bad near the shitty $10 dual pull lever I've been using for the past year and my brakes pull smooth.
quick newbie dual brake question... (didn't want to start a new thread)
Just got the Problem Solvers double barrel brake lever and I'll be installing it tonight - just curious what most people go for? Should the rear brake start hitting first, or the front? Any other advice? (besides buy a better lever)
[of course once i start using it i'll know what i like/dislike and adjust accordingly but since tonight is polo and i'm going ot throw it on and go... just looking for pointers, thanks]
I like either same or front first. Showed the mechanics and my shop and they would have done back first.
Keep it even engage until you know for yourself
If the pads engage both rims at the same time, the back will lock up before the front.
It's all preference from there, try it out and use those barrel adjusters!
I like mine to skid a little bit before the front locks.
The design of these makes dialing in irrelevant to some degree. Inside, there is a triangle shaped piece that connects the lever to both cables. This means if one cable goes taught, the power goes to the other cable. It's more like ABS. This is a good feature IMO, and it's why I like these levers. Then shifting power to each wheel is more based on shifting your own weight.
i make them both as tight as possible, so that i stop faster
just like most opion-based questions on this (and every) forum, figure out what works best for you. set them equal and play on it for a week or two. then set the front to hit first. then set the rear to hit first. and then you can make an experience-based decision. trial and error is your friend. : )
Thanks all. I got it installed and setup nice. Went out last night to play... my first game in, they shut the lights off on us after 45 seconds. But my brakes worked well, so that's nice.
I think Urban Editor is spot on with his analysis though. With this particular lever, he's right - it's designed to engage both brakes at about the same time. There's not much way around that (unless I use a different/better lever). But it's fine, I like the feel and it does stop me more quickly. Mission accomplished. For now.
Dual brakes? Amidoinitrite?
Thread #2: http://leagueofbikepolo.com/forum/gear/brakes/2012/10/22/post-your-dual-...