Machine Politics vs Beaver Boys, May 2011. Photo by Bruce Carver
I scored a set of 48h of unlaced rhyno lites off a friend and wanted to see if there is a prefered hub for playing polo...
I had issues with the bearing caps on the MKE 48h hubs. The face on them wears down faster than I believe they should, and it results in the hub slipping as you try to loosen your nuts. After getting Ben's to send me new caps, the problem was resolved. I've been meaning to contact them about getting several more for the inevitable failure in the future.
I have had no such problem with my 48 MKE hub. Mine is on the front though.
It was my rear that had the problem. I think I torque my nuts on pretty tight and it flattens the face. I think the metal could be harder.
What you can do Will, unscrew caps and put blue lock-tight on the threads then reinstall. Clean excess and they should stick for you.
The caps stay attached to the hub fine. The problem was that they would not make good contact to the dropout and would spin as I tried to loosen the 2nd nut. The first would loosen fine thanks to the other still being tight.
My front hub is starting to do it, but I can tweak it by loosening each side just a bit over and over until it finally gives without slipping.
It's caused by the dropout facing surface of the cap smoothing out from flipping the wheel/retightening the nuts often. Once that radial texture is gone, they don't grip the dropout effectively.
I still have one of the caps somewhere. I'll take a photo of it this weekend.
Edit: Found it in my bag.
What metal is that? steel or alu
Let me make clear, these hubs have been awesome. Once the cap smooths out it only affects the removal of the wheel. Carrying a cone wrench along with your other wrench will allow for easy removal. I never did get around to buying a cone wrench though.
Shimano tandem hubs.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/45504291@N08/4388549248/
Shimano tandem hubs.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/45504291@N08/4388549248/
what is the flange and axle spacing?
I have been playing hard on my new wheelset for the last month. I thought they came loose once. It turned out my bottom cupler was loose. I believe Shimano has ball bearing hubs down.
Is the MK hub rolling on a cartridge bearing?
gsport hubs from odyssey on close-out. $28 lhd and rhd 3/8ths female axles and takes a freewheel 48h
(apologies in advance, I know fek all about BMX sizings)
What is the spacing for such hubs? I like the idea of left hand drive as I bend surly steel chainrings all the time (they bend back ok, but never perfect)
they are spaced 110 but since thay are female all you need is a couple of extra washers to make up the 10 or 25mm difference
I'd love to test this setup. Only problem:cash and time for making a wheel out of it might makes for an expensive experiment. It's a bolt that goes through, into the axle right? Spacers in my 135 frame could give the bolt enough leverage to pull out of the aluminum(?) threads of the axle.
LongArm Caldwell is rolling a Phil 48 hole tandem hub in the back. I like Joey's Shimano find there. But I'd expect the Phil axle design (and stuff) to be stronger.
saving my moneys ... chukkers and so many spokes aren't cheap either.
The Phills will be prettier and more expensive but not stronger. Ball bearing hubs provide one strength factor that sealed cartridge hubs don't. Side torsion strength. The round inside bearing cups provide strength that square cartridge hubs lack. This is why Shimano has the ball bearing system locked down. My polo bike gets the strongest parts on the market.
bike nerd crap - >
You are fully right that for lateral stuff loose balls will take more force before they fail. A moment under a 1/4 ton press for a cartridge bearing, and 1 ton for loose balls or something like that. But even 48 spokes can't handle either of those. So spokes still fail first.
Your hubs have that wonderful invention of the cassette. It puts the the drive side bearing right next to the frame which is strong. I write this because go hop an old 10 speed off a curb, observe the bent axle, and you'll know why cassettes are good.
But: check out how fat the Phil axle is here, straight through. Where the cones are on loose ball axles is where they get skinny, and that's where they bend and break.
http://www.rideyourbike.com/images/philfreehub.jpg
And my last nerd point is this: the strongest wheels have symmetrical spokes. The Phil tandem hub (not the cassette in the link above) is designed to give you a fat axle, up to 7 speeds, and symmetrical spokes. Even stronger for polo would be the Kiss Off hub, with the flanges spaced waaay out so you get steep symmetrical spokes. But they don't (advertise) a 48 hole version.
< end bike nerd crap.
Joey - man I had to point out that Phils are more than bling. That said, your wheelset is badass chingon and stronger than anything that I've ever seen that broke. When there were wheel covers.
Devin
bike nerd crap - >Even stronger for polo would be the Kiss Off hub, with the flanges spaced waaay out so you get steep symmetrical spokes. But they don't (advertise) a 48 hole version.
Devin
But they will custom drill one for you if you throw a dumptruck full of cash at them.
Yes I am a bike nerd. Worked in the industry for 8 yrs. now. I left out a modification I made. I did swap the original hollow axle for a wheels manufacturing solid axle that allowed me to use nuts to hold my wheel on. Also used straight guage spokes for strength. No offense taken. I realy do try to research stuff till I find somthing that is worth buying and using.
All that said I love my bikes!
I'm not a bike nerd but I had one build my wheels and he convinced me that butted spokes were stronger then straight so I ended up with 2.3/ 2.0mm spokes. I also think he did a 4 cross on the drive side and 2 cross on the other. Not sure if the later make a lot of difference or not.
< further nerddom
- butted spokes are a little lighter
- butted spokes are more expensive
- arguements can be made both ways about straight vs butted being stronger and it all depends on the 'whole wheel' view of the thing anyway and if you don't believe me then i've got a pressure washer to sell you and that's fine.
supernerd: can "cross 4" when you have at least 36 spokes. Lower cross numbers make for shorter spokes which are slightly lighter, but don't transfer the twist of you standing on the cranks (or disk brake) as well. Sometimes your local bike nerd might have good spokes in a length that will be just right for cross 2 on one side of your wheel ... and it looks sweet too. But symmetry is where its at.
<
I heard and saw 12 or so out of 36 spokes pluck out of a nice front wheel the other week ... whole wheel health and strenght ... is going to depend on covers too.
I don't think anyone would argue any of these fringe details, there just fun to examine. Drop your bike nerddom on us anytime! The wheel is a campy hi-flange 36 hole with a dp18. I've had it 6 months with no problem so it seems my local nerd did a good job. I'm almost tempted to send him a link because he'd love this conversation.
this hub is butter
these only take the small size freewheel!
im too drunk to be reading butted and nipples that many times...ill check back when im sober........ish
Profiles with true 3/8'' axles. Silky smooth with the beefiest lockrings I've seen.
http://profileracing.com/webstore/product_333.jpg
these hubs are $330 a pair. anyone have cheaper suggestions? similar in price to the 28.50 gsport perhaps?
I can't believe I missed this blog post from Surly Bikes.
http://surlybikes.com/blog/2326/
At the bottom is this paragraph:
Oh, and one more thing: we will soon have available some of our New hubs in 48 hole, which ought to make a lot of bike polo players happy. Soon (end of July) we'll have 48h front non disc, rear 135mm free/free, and rear 120mm in both free/free and fix/fix threading. Also coming with these will be non disc 36 hole fronts. All are black, and all have nutted axles. And yes, later (August?) we'll have 135mm fix/fix too. Remember to adjust those bearings.
I've been using this rear hub since November and its the best I've ever used. Surly shipped some to LA and some to East Vancouver. They've been beating the crap out of them too. Long story short, this is a great option for those of us that use 135mm spaced bikes for polo and they will be available at the end of July. This bike and wheel will be at ESPI5 if anyone wants to take a look.
Yep I'm one of the polo players (who rides a MTB frame) that is happy about this news, ...I guess enough of us emailed them requesting these combinations! good work Surly.
Martin, and or red army somethign or other has one of the new surly hubs and loves it. Hopefully he will share his feelings here.
I need to buy something as I am always going threw wheels with the big dish... I think surly might just get my business.
Its all in the lacing folks.
Is there some secret here or is that just a stament that needs no further explanation? I'm about to build a polo wheelset and would appreciate elaboration. Thanks.
radial. easy. done.
All this wheel building talk has got me hot and bothered. Either that or my precognition is trying to tell me someone is going to taco my rear wheel at North Americans.
In my experience you need to find a spoke tension-o-meter. Make it tight and make sure you're making it tight. I have seen good polo players roll sloppy shit out there all proud at their new build. Put your own strength into each one of those spokes. Strong, tight, heavy. Make them tremble at the beefy heft of your polo wheels.
3 or 4 cross?
3 cross. Especially with a high flang hub.
Depends on your spoke count as well though.
some idiot in oly just laced up his wheels just 1 corss. i want to see how it works out. I'm calling him an idiot just because he will read this though.
I think best polo lacing is up in the air honestly
There won't be much difference from 3 to 4 cross in terms of strength. The most important thing is having a wheelbuilder that knows what they are doing help you if you don't know how.
Things you can do to improve the overall wheel strength without getting into the spoke count and pattern:
-Use some kind prep on the spoke threads, like spoke prep, or in a pinch linseed oil works.
-Detention the wheel in the building process, if a detention box is available to you then use it, or do it by hand using the floor or a bench.
-Have an experienced wheelbuilder build it, or buy him/her some beer to show you how to properly tension a wheel.
-Have a spoke tension'o'meter to make sure that your getting the proper tension on whatever spoke you end up using.
Pick appropriate components to build the wheel with, I'd recommend 2.0mm straight gauge spokes (you'll save a little money too) and brass nipples, not alloy. A strong rim from a good manufacturer with and a decent hub. wheels are like anything, you get what you pay for.
Part # HU0233 Surly 48 hole 135mm hubs are in stock at QBP. Call your local bike shop and order!
Hey Sven if you or anyone else is upgrading to this new 48 and looking to unload their 32holio Surly* let me know. I've got a use, and I'll pay a fair price plus shipping.
Devin
* 135mm color doesn't matter - HU0204, HU0205
The price is amazing! Just do it! I know I am. Oh and I bent my rear Ryhno lite. Rocking a Dyad now.
M$RP?
~$50-60 or something around there.
$50.99 at Bikeman. Cheep cheep fun fun
They only offer them fixed/fixed or free/free Nothing wrong with trying to get a little extra functionality in there, except it means the hub body is going to be narrower. It make more sense to me to for polo to have a wider hub body so overall the lateral stability would be greater.
They only offer them fixed/fixed or free/free Nothing wrong with trying to get a little extra functionality in there, except it means the hub body is going to be narrower. It make more sense to me to for polo to have a wider hub body so overall the lateral stability would be greater.
There is no sense in complaining about the width of a hub that is already 135mm wide.
Complaining about a hub being flip-flop is silly. You ride a 700c fixie anyway so who cares want you want in a MTB hub, StephenSo.
Actually I was inspired by bikes I saw at NAs and I'm building a new polo bike based on my old mountain bike. I've got it pretty much ready to go except the rear wheel so this is kind of important to me. Moreover, 135mm has nothing to do with the width of the hub body it is only the axel spacing as I understand it. On my fixie I have a campy hi-flange track hub that has a very wide hub body. I'm looking for something similar. Correct me if I'm wrong but a wider hub body would potentially be stronger against typical hits a wheel takes in polo. Maybe flip-floping is great, but I just don't see taking advantage of it. Thank you Sveden for your insight.
Cool story. You are still missing the point. But as you just figured out that freewheel is awesome and MTBs rules that is to be expected.
On my fixie I have a campy hi-flange track hub that has a very wide hub body. I'm looking for something similar
This is the right hub, Steven. I haven't found the measurement yet but the flange spacing is wide. By the way, you can put a BMX freewheel on a fixed+fixed flip flop hub without a problem. Just a few fewer threads. I think a good chainline will call for your outer ring up front.
Devin
By the way, you can put a BMX freewheel on a fixed+fixed flip flop hub without a problem. Just a few fewer threads.
Since the surly hubs only are fixed/fixed or free/free I am considering getting the fixed and rolling the freewheel on. That seems wrong but I'm just not sure I want to play with a freewheel. I may love it and role one on each side which feels even more wrong. The surly hub is a great price point and does seem like they took advantage of the 135mm spacing better then most other 135mm 48 hole options. I know you love those phils but when I looked at the pictures of them they seem like they just used a 135 axel on the same 120 hub body.
the kiss off phils are the widest spaced hub you can get in a 135 and the highest flanged...IMO that equals a stringer built wheel. I have the disc specific kiss offs custom drilled 48 laced to 26" chukkers and I have never been happier despite the price, hahaha. previously I had a 36 hole surly laced to dyads and the ybs never gave me a problem even after thousands of miles...yes, thousands...so I love surly products. have a karate monkey, steamroller and a cross check.
Hi Stevens~
It's a different body. From the Phil spec:
AVH422 "Rear Track Double Fixed" "120mm axle"
Hub Center to Flange 29mm
HMK637 "Rear Kiss-Off" Fixed/Fixed "135mm axle"
Hub Center to Flange 37.8mm
Oh, cool. That is nice. I was looking at the fixed free and I think there might have been something wrong with the prices. The Surly dual free is C-T-F (L or R): 38.5mm and it cost just a little over $50.
I like this one:
HMK535 HMK635 Rear K-O - Freewheel 135mm Flange 57.8mm LR 39.3mm
Is that the one you have? How much does it cost when you want it custom drilled? Where do you order that?
Yep. the HMK635 is the one I got. I'm not sure how much they charged me for the drilling because they anodized it for me at the same time and just lumped it all together. I think it was +$50 for the drilling ? (guessing)
I ordered it direct from Phil.
Just ordered my new surly 48 spoke hub, Rhyno Lite rim. Hopefully this thing will hold up to my abuse.
@ Sveden: since you seem to be moderating this topic, have you heard anything negative about the Surley hubs? I've been trying to build a pair of wheels for my new Joust (new 135mm rear d.o. spacing). It seems that Surley is one of the only products out there with a flop flop. The idea is to run a polo freewheel & a street freewheel. Long story short, my wheel builder (/bike shop manager / polo player / blahblah) is trying top talk me out of the Surley hubs in general. He's been seeing a lot of problems out there. Do you have an opinion?
I'm not moderating the topic per se. I just helped bring this product into production by pestering Surly about its need in the polo world.
My personal experience with Surly hubs has been great. I've been rocking this hub since November and have had nothing but good things to say.
Thanks. I thought you might have some experience using that hub. I don't know exactly what the issues some people are having, but I want to be sure the hub is strong enough for polo..
the build quality on them is good, and its easy to replace bearings, but i've had like four sets of bearings crap out on me, i'm done with surly hubs, i'm going back to formula and it's multiple incarnations for a low end fixed/free hub application. when i do need to build a good set of 48's i'll probably get a Phil.
i've had bearing issues with surly hubs before, but if you slap a couple of phil woods cartridges in their you'd have nothing to worry about.
I will say something negative about a Surly flip flop. I've said it here before. They may have redesigned since so what I have to say may not be relevant. I hope they redesign because I like the Surly brand.
The issue I had was with the thin lock nuts designed to be used with cone wrenches. This is poor design for a flip-flop. Problem: the nuts came loose and cone-wrench adjustment is tricky. Mortal flaw: with regular flip-flopping to the torque needed to hold up against polo sprinting, those little nuts wear, crack and break. The advice of my LBS was "quit breaking those we can not order them and you're taking the last of our spares."
It died a spectacular death. I was sprinting, playing fixed back then. As I was about to score a glorious breakaway goal my legs were slowed to a stop in about two rotations. The nut broke and maybe the bearings disintegrated and the hub body machined itself into a paper weight.
I just read the original 48h hole hub thread (from 2008) this morning.
http://leagueofbikepolo.com/forum/gear/2008/12/07/48-hole-hubs
Lots of suck talk about the surly hubs. Kind of the same bearing stuff talked about elsewhere on the web. Good to hear (hellochris) that some people have been able to fix the issue. I'm not really good at cone wrench adjusting so that worries me a little.
Oh OK the bearing thing. I took that for granted, Keith in my explanation.
Here is Surly's hub PDF. Some people think it is a weird choice to have a loose balled hub system. And most of the gripe is from mechanics who can't replace the bearings or races after they get trashed.
How their hubs are described in the PDF:
They were designed to be versatile, adjustable, and durable. They are not lightweight, flashy, or expensive…that’s not really our thing. Like other Surly® products, New Hubs get you on the road or trail and keep you there, without emptying your wallet.
And here is information on bearing adjustment: Bearing adjustment may be necessary, before your New Hub is put into service. Axles should be free-spinning with no side-to-side play. Also, make sure the locknuts are tight against the inner sleeve nut/cone. If you lack proper tools or mechanical aptitude, leave this to a professional bicycle mechanic. Occasional bearing adjustments throughout the life of the hub are normal and recommended. When replacing bearings, use only 7901 type cartridge bearings. These are direction-specific and require the black-colored seal to face outwards. Failure to install and adjust these correctly will result in premature bearing failure. So basically if you don't adjust your bearings properly you can crush the life out of the insides of the hub. On the other hand you have the ability to adjust the hub when it gets sloppy. I also know mechanics that don't like servicing them and I know mechanics who ride the crap out of them. It is a $50 hub. Like I said, I built my wheel in November around this hub. Going on over 10 months now of polo. I rode this wheel through of the sloppiest, iciest, saltiest and sandiest friggin winters in recent memory. And it still spins true. The few times I've brought my polo rig to the shop I have kindly asked the mechanic to check the adjustment on the hub.
Sven, I hope you get commission. The info you posted is really good to know. I've got nothing against Surly products, as of yet I own none. Since I'm building around a 135mm d.o. spacing & have no choice of products if I want a flop flop. I just needed a little more assurance before heading in one direction or another. Thanks.
I don't get commission or anything I just like the company and their frames and such, a little bit of home town pride wrapped in there too. I did get the hub to prototype because I was the squeaky wheel dropping emails and suggestions.
x2 Sveden.
Quality. They make bomb proof stuff. I wish I could look at Polo Joels wheel. I am sure I could solve the problem. Those cone nuts are thin for a reason. Surly is quality and polo certified. Even though I sell tons of Surly products and always get discouraged when I personally speak to them about polo and I get shunned. I love Surly
Thanks Sven!
A couple responses just to close this out, in the spirit of friendly debate.
I am neither engineer nor professional mechanic. Perhaps proper cone adjustment is beyond my skills. Today I use a hub that does not require regular cone adjustment and the extra money spent to avoid that problem is well worth it to me. I also started playing freewheel and stopped flip-flopping, both of which seem to mean less stress on the rear hub. It's possible I could run a Surly again without problems. I'm not about to try, but it's possible.
I've been playing polo on a 1x1 for many years. I have a Surly front hub that's lasted as long as the frame with no problems. I would trust other Surly products.
steel will stretch 5mm n.p.
X2 @capital o Alberta
thread: the topic is strong, not inexpensive. Phils are strong without a doubt. And if you value the 50 bills a good build is worth, and time, andd compare it with how much you spent on polo beer last year. ah never mind. beer is good and worthy.
Devin
Does Phil make a 48?
They do. Hard to get and very expensive. A Surly is built with the same quality but just does not have all the bling status.
I'm saving my reply till I'm drunk, Joey. ;)
Second Drunk edit: Hey. Come to ball whackers and ill let you disassemble a Phil for proof. I'm too drunk to draw why you're wrong. Thoughtful machinists have a different goal from price point. Just sayin, the shit is not the same. Quality that is. The surley hubs, shimano tandem hubs, etc are fat and unlikely to break. Fine products that I'd buy and build for family, friends and myself. But they'll break before the Phils. No doubt.
Oakland, thanks for the liquid courage and fine polo tonight. here's to Eli's, and good times,
-hic-
Devin
Ps please forgive my asshole initial first drunk edit. You're only full of shit on this specific topic. Expensive? Fine, yes. Same quality, strength? Wrong.
Stay drunk. Its ok.
I've seen enough bike shit to know what I am talking about.
never ridden a phil, honestly, but they must be pretty shitty if it's the same as the surlys. Just sayin.
I didn't see the question about El Gordos until now.
I like them a lot. I have a front and a rear and they have been holding up really well.
Phil has made 48 hole hubs for tandems since the 70's. I got a rear track hub drilled for 48. Dan Finger got their Kiss Off drilled for 48. The Freewheel at 1920 Hayes here in SF may have a set based on the track hub on hand but I don't think that they ship stuff. If they still have them and you'd rather not wait to try and figure out a custom order through you favorite shop then let me know. I roll by there somewhat frequently, and I'd be happy to ship to you. The shop has Phil axle caps for whatever spacing you want.
---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: Dustin
Date: Wed, Jul 28, 2010 at 4:14 PM
To: sfbikepolo@npogroups.org
Look at these babys! 48 hole high flange . Polo bike hubs
http://www.philwood.com/wp-content/docs/wheelbuilding_break.pdf
Ask for Dustin or Travis at the Freewheel (415) 752-9195
Devin
edit: I must have clicked the wrong button - this was meant to be a reply to stevens.
Does anyone use or know of a 135mm spaced cassette hub with 48 spokes?
I was looking at tandem hubs but they all seem to be 140mm or wider, and also have threads for a drum brake.
I did find this, but i'd prefer something you can put 2 or more cogs on.
http://www.easternbikes.com/products/parts/63
Built these a while ago in anticipation of an imaginary bike that will never exist:
Those are sickkkkk!
i'll take those off your hands, will. [poof!]
Just finished these>>>>
Thats a bunch on money to spend on a wheelset, to then go and put a cheap freewheel on it that doesnt even have prongs to use a freewheel remover on it.
It is a Shimano. I have never had troubles with Shimanos in the past. It is hard to find 20 t and up freewheels these days.
Looks great! Did you get the spokes powder coated?
Thanks! The spokes came that way. They are made by The Shadow Conspiracy bmx . I wasn’t sure how they would look.
Does anyone know of a 48-hole internal geared rear hub?
maybe a rohlhoff but they're about $700
Hey Xian - Find a 24 hole deal maybe from a folding bike and drill the f'er out!
Anybody know of someone that makes a 48h disc rear hub?
For price and performance, MKE offers a great hubset. I've run them for several months without any issues.
www.comopolo.com