Machine Politics vs Beaver Boys, May 2011. Photo by Bruce Carver
I wanted to start a seperate thread for this, because this seems to be the one section of the rules that people keep bringing up the most.
Yellow/Red card system VS one minute penalties. Let me know what you think.
if the card system is adopted, we need our own colors.
double-tap is a bad idea as you don't want someone who's technically out of play to be racing across the middle of the court, potentially modifying the decisions of those still in play. better would be to determine the average amount of time needed to perform a double-tap and make the offender stay at one tap spot for that duration.
even single tap might be sufficient.
pink & brown?? pink you're in, brown you're out!
I think i have mentioned my preference for penalties. I think that having someone sidelined for a specific amount of time adds a really great dynamic to the game. If a one minute penalty is too long then maybe in shorter games we have a scaled penalty system. Kind of like the worlds this year.
We can still use cards, but the cards=penalty times pink=30sec brown=2min
An important aspect of Bench Minor's penalty system was delayed calls. When someone fouled, the ref's arm went up, and play didn't stop until the offending team that fouled touched the ball. At least once the team that was fouled retained possession and scored before team that had fouled touched, it was awesome. In all other cases, once the offending team touched the ball, the ref whistled, play stopped, offending player went off, ball went to team with power play, whistle started play again. Not too many penalties, maybe 3 or 4 times per 50 minute game. If we're going to go this route, we need a time keeper that assists the head ref by telling the penalized team when their player can go back on. This was a bit of a problem at bench minor.
If penalties are going to be applied on the fly (no whistles) like a double tap out, the ref needs a clear way of calling out players. London has a double-tapout penalty system that they introduced at EHBPC 2009 and have enforced at several tournaments, including in Karlsruhe in February and maybe adopted by other European tournaments. Problem is they never have means of calling out the player. They need voice amplification and either knowledge of all players' names, or a number they can call. Whistles in this method distract everyone and really fuck up the game, you have all six players looking up to see what's going on. Also, the courts were really small, and it really sucked when someone double tapped out and was back in the game before the player they had fouled.
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Delayed call was great.
Bench minor show us the advantage of colored and number by team and player. Quick way to have stats updates.
The one minute penalty was great, and i think it could easily be set up for smaller time games. Like in hockey, when the team in power play score, it stop penalty. And power play give the game a great interest, taking down offense with a less player is great.
Something like that look logical for me:
one lil' foul: tap out
two lil foul: one min pen.
One big foul: one min pen.
two big fouls: 2 min or eject from game.
Cause with the yellow-red card system, people gonna now that they can have one big foul for a yellow card who don't stop the game. And after that, does a ref gonna give red card knowing that it gonna kill the game much more than an one min penalty?
Double tap out suck,
Im for a single whistle when there is a foul that need a tap out, ref scream number and colour (or name of team of player) who should tap out after the one he put down illegaly.
double whistle if he need to stop game.
Whenever I foul someone in a way that causes a dab (most often tripping their wheel with my mallet), I raise my mallet in the air to signify that I am out of play, roll to a tap in point, but don't tap back in until AFTER the person I fouled does.
If that were enforced, it would be a little bit more of a penalty for the offending player, and a little less obstructive than having someone cross half court twice to hit both tap ins. Of course, then we'd have to institute a delay of game penalty for a fouled player who takes their sweet time tapping back in, knowing that it's also stalling a (perhaps stronger) member of the opposite team for a while.
best example of don't be a dick i have heard.
tapping out after a player you just fouled is common in cascadia.
Toronto too, actually i think it was pretty much a rule at a few big tournaments last year, too. ESPI, NSPI, for instance.
Oh, for sure. I didn't make it up on my own. I want to say that the first person I saw do it was Montana at the 2008 NACCC in Chicago.
Either way, I think it's the right thing to do, so I try to do it.
And here too, but I am trying my best to make my own little cascadia here also.
wow .. now that IS cool ... I am gonna start doing this at out regular pickup games now ...
There are a mess of friendlies and smaller tourneys happening over the next 2-3 weekends. Can we get some volunteers to ref a few games at each event by these rules, particularly the plaid/polka dot card system? That way, there will be some feedback about how the card system works with gameplay, player, and audience reaction. Perhaps then, the system can be codified or amended before the majors and the NA's.
I will volunteer to ref a few games this way at the Kansas City friendlies the weekend of April 24-25 and report back here.
That would be cool if you could do a test run. I've asked a couple tourney's in the West here to try it too. I like the idea of the Yellow card coming with a single tap-out as well.
Yes, we will test at the 24hr Throw-in. I'll ref at least a few games, we should have enough time to test a few of the senerios.
I'll also volunteer to ref a few games in KC. I reffed (refed?) soccer for a few years.
I will volunteer to play dirty and generally be an asshole for a few games in order to test this out.
Are you planning any trips to Northern California? We'll organize a tourney if you offer to ref! Finding good ref volunteers is a challenge.
All this discussion of rules is flying by with scant attention to refs. Other, bigger sports screen, train, certify and even compensate referees. I know we're haggling out a set of rules on paper. Someones are going to have to translate that paper into reality.
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Starting in May, besides a road trip to ESPIs, NAs, and Midwests, my entire year is fairly wide open (taking a year or more off of grad school). I'd be more than willing to ref tournaments, but the problem is that I'd want to play in them even more! The problem with bike polo refs is that everyone who knows anything about the game wants to and can play in the tournaments. With other major sports, there are all sports of people who know all about the game, the rules, the strategy, and so forth but aren't any good at it (see: fat sports analysts).
Well let us know when you are ready for a West coast polo tour. I think there's another thread on that topic.
As for refs, I'm hopeful that eventually people will start raising their hand to establish a reputation as a good bike polo referee. A good ref ends the debates and shouting matches. We can really use people like that.
I like the idea of making players tap for a minor penalty/yellow card. But honestly these games are 10-15 minutes or 5 points in length. If someone crosses the line and commits an egregious foul they should be removed from the rest of the game.
I think we should be very careful with the Yellow and Red card system. Look at soccer (and hockey) were people are constanlty diving to get a call. If you accidently mallet a front wheel this should not be a yellow card. That is just crazy. We all know it happens even to the best players. Save the cards for dangerous play were the opponent could be injured but not accidents. I see this as a slippery slope and refs will start handing out cards regularly. 3 vs 3 and a player gets a red is a big difference compared to being down a man in soccer (closer to hockey). Note I think the penalty system could have even more problems.
Exactly. These need to be used for outright flagrant abuses where people's safety is at stake or someone is out and out cheating.
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In soccer cards arent given for every foul.
I see it as working for polo something like this:
Keep tap outs for the minor/incidental stuff (ref needs to be vocal and warn players not to repeat).
Yellow card goes to something major or consistently making minor fouls (in conjunction with 1 min in the box?).
If behaviour continues after yellow card, red is awarded.
I agree, that the yellow card red card system is for flagrant fouls. I think that polo needs a way to deal with plays that are not flagrant but still are a foul. Penalties work great for this.
In soccer, you also run the risk of missing future games if you acquire too many yellow or red cards. I wouldn't be opposed to seeing people constantly committing flagrant fouls forced to sit out games or thrown out of a tournament halfway through the competition.
Was reading this thread and others waiting for this point to be made... Seemed like people were concerned that those getting cards wouldn't really care/would continue to foul b/c there was no REAL punishment beyond the current game.
If someone goes as far as to get a red card, then they should be required to sit out the remainder of the current game AND the entirety of the next. Two reds in a tournament, and you're out for the remainder of the tourney.
Now the hard part is to just determine what severity of fouls/repeated fouls constitutes each card...
So you want to allow for mallet accidents that cause opponents to crash and possibly get seriously injured to go unpunished? Players are always able to keep their mallets away from wheels to avoid this, you're just begging for a team that's good at playing the crowd to show innocence. And why do you bring up diving? You have to be a hard motherfucker to roll over someone's mallet at speed just to get a call. I gave one player a tripping call the whole weekend when he took the ballcarrier down with his mallet. We both knew it was an accident, but after I explained that it directly effected play, and could've injured Jav, he understood the necessity for calling it. Boston was unable to capitalize on the man advantage however.
Everyone seems to be making some good points here. I think that we can all agree that the accidents and lesser fowls will be dealt with by refs in judging with the spirit of the game and not just someone out there throwing down yellow card and red cards for the hell of it. The new ruleset draft seems to do a good job of outlining a lot of what is and is not acceptable play for tournaments. I am opposed to time penalty's generally for most tournament play and I feel that if you receive multiple red cards in one tournament you probably aren't playing safely. Therefore I feel like multiple red card offenders should not be allowed to continue in a tournament, after all there is a substitution rule as well that would allow for the rest of the team to continue.
just a thought but what if there were four tap points on the court. the 2 at mid court and 1 behind each goal. when a penalty is issued you could have a double tap penalty one tap behind the goal and one tap mid court, a triple tap where you have to tap one behind the goal then mid court then behind the other goal. and you could have a four tap penalty, basically a full lap . this would keep people from cutting across the court to impede play. the tap points behind the goal would be for enforcing the other penalties and not for the usual dab/footdown penalty at mid court.
Or a double tap involves tapping once then riding around both goals and tapping the same spot again.
If you get in the way you need to do it again. And speed helps in our current rule.
My problem with penalties is administration and consistent refs.
My problem with penalties is administration and consistent refs.
Yes, this. If you had timed penalties, you would need 4 people reffing every game in a tournament. Two goal judges, a ref (hopefully a good ref), and a timekeeper running the box. There would have to be 2/3 as many people supporting the game as playing it!
or a ref who has two watches
That sounds to me like a lot more of the ref's time paying attention to his wrists than to the game he's reffing.
Sets two timers up so that at a push of a button, the countdown starts and an alarm goes off when the penalized player is able to return... seems reasonable/doable, although your scenario of 4 officiating people per game is much more ideal.
I think that 4 people is a good number for ref tournament game. The time keeper can have 2 chrono, and he can helps the ref for some hard decision.
I also believe more thought needs to be given to the people who are supposed to implement this increasingly detailed set of rules under development. I have found it challenging to find people to ref games. I've been to more than a few tourneys (including NA'09) where it seems no one even brought a watch.
Four refs on every game of a 2-day event...it does not sound workable to me. If that's where we want to go then the 'polo convention' style of 24+ team, 100+ game events will have to change.
This may just be me, but I find that I con only ref fairly up to my own level of play. The final few games of most of the tourneys I went to last year were played at a speed and an intesity that would've had me crying foul all the time as a player being checked and run off my lines like that. But everyone in those games feels it's just 'A' polo.
Obviously, I can see when someone's been pushed of their bike, but at finals speed, I couldn't tell if it was just a bad check for a tap out or a dangerous play for a yellow card.
When have you seen any reffing? You weren't at bench minor or espi v. All the finals matches were reffed by coach, and although I thought he was being pretty loose with the games beforehand he was being very consistant, I didn't see anything in the finals I would've called. It was clean, knock-your-socks-off polo.
Are you saying your tournament was the only one to ever use a referee? Every tournament I've been to has had someone there to call people on their shit. Every tournament I've seen has also had inconsistency with the referees calls from game to game and person to person.
Getting closer to penalties as doled out in soccer will only create divers.
we already make fun of you, imagine what it'll be like if you start taking dives!
actually this might be one area where it'll be easier with bike polo than with soccer or hockey....I think it could be tough to fake falling of your bike. It's not really something you can do on purpose.
i agree. I was pretty good a diving when i used to play soccer but at bench minor, it just isn't that appealing to jump off your bike.
I think tap outs for card offenses should be just fine, one for a yellow and eject for a red, I think people are missing the point on what kind of things constitute yellow and red card offenses. Red cards should be reserved for flagrant fowls, and by that I mean things like intentional t-bones, striking another player with your mallet or fist out of malice, fights, repeated intentional sweeping of a wheel when not playing the ball, repeated moving pick violations. I also think people are missing the point that not every fowl will constitute a yellow card, I mean if you make someone dab cause things got hot and you go dab with them(courtesy dab) you probably shouldn't get a yellow for that. Also if you swept someones wheel accidentally and you go dab with them, no yellow card, but if you did it and didn't care that you weren't playing the ball and kept right on moving, then maybe you should get the yellow card. It's more about intent IMO and experience. Also if you argue heatedly with the ref and cause a delay of game, they can issue you a yellow card.
Moving picks are allowed mr. timtim.
So you want to encourage players to be considerate and polite, instead of playing with an hardened-steel edge, and using discipline to stay out of the box? I think Courtesy is fine during pickup, when you want to be able to enjoy drinks with your other club members later in the day, but for tournaments, we need to make our sport more appealing to spectators. Otherwise it's just a bunch of bicycle enthusiasts jerking each other off.
In 5 years, if polo players are still our largest fan base, there's a big freakin problem.
In 5 years, if polo players are still our largest fan base, there's a big freakin problem.
Hard court bike polo has been a player's activity for the last 10 years or so. Grass polo a century before that. What's the big problem?
I'm also not following you on the desire for pleasing the spectators. It's fun to play for a crowd, sure. Though I don't think it's ever necessary to change the game for spectators. I know sports have done this but that was taking into account their paychecks, we don't get those and I don't know how many of us ever will. Play with curtesy and have fun at polo.
Yeah, grass polo is for dorks. But I'm sure they enjoy patting each other on the butt after good games, while trying to ignore the glares from people that can't relate to their sport (everyone else). I'm not talking about paychecks. I'm talking about chatting with cute girls at the bar. And when they ask what I enjoy doing in life, not saying something like "I'm a professional curler" (if you're not familiar with it, google it. It's in the goddamn olympics). I'm saying in five years, It'd be nice to say something equivalent to "I'm a professional hurler", a sport only the irish are brave enough to compete at.
I'm not talking about paychecks. I'm talking about chatting with cute girls at the bar. And when they ask what I enjoy doing in life, not saying something like "I'm a professional curler"
You heard it here first ladies and gentlemen. Zachstar does it for the ladies.
So to grossly simplify the card system we are discussing; it is to enforce the golden rule and the tap out rule, maintaining a safe playing environment and upholding the quality of play. I'm all for it!
nice summary Reese, obviously you got the point.
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We tried out the Yellow and Red card system this weekend for the Oregon Championships. One word......Whistle. I feel that if players are going to be called for offenses this will be key in getting them to recognize the ref and appropriately respond. That said there were only a few yellow cards given out the whole weekend and no Red cards the whole tourney.
Quite a few people have mentioned to me that they liked the penalty system at bench minor. The problems that I see with it are: games at bench minor were 50 minutes long, and you had a whole lineup of players to choose from for different situations (penalty killing, etc). In a 5 point, or 12 minute game (format for most tournaments), I think a one minute penalty could make a huge impact in the game, and whistles would disrupt the flow of the game, and slow things down a lot. Also with a one minute penalty one bad call by the ref, could have a huge impact on the outcome of the game, whereas with the card system one bad call wouldn't have such a huge impact, but repeated offences would eventually be dealt with severly, and I believe this would be an effective deterrent.
One thing Pieter and I also discussed is that yellow cards could also come with an automatice double tap-in. (tap-in at both sides before returning to play) this way a yellow card wouldn't be viewed as a "freebie" to pull a dirty play. Let me know what you think.