Machine Politics vs Beaver Boys, May 2011. Photo by Bruce Carver
Sorry, someone had to start this thread. When are they necessary? Who are they? How many will it take? Can they keep time with a video camera?
LA had a very fancy portable electronic clock/scoreboard at the alternate court on Saturday. It was very nice to have. These things may be quite expensive.
If an event is a "NAH" tourney then "NAH" should take some role in the officiating. Isn't that what national organizations do?
That is "national organizations do"... when they have a legal status and collect dues from members. Where and when can I start paying my dues NAH?
we are gonna offer an honorarium to ref's at North Americans.
I think that's great. Imagine the pre-tourney rules discussion limited to a few refs, rather than the group shouting match.
A large timer, digital or analog, may be be a cheap solution to a fancy scoreboard.
A few things to make officiating smoother. one whistles, two stopwatches, three line judges, four scorekeepers. having the ref at center court is good when combined with goal or line judges at either end of the court and someone to keep score on the score board. having stopwatches that work easily is also key for making the refs job easier. giving the ref a whistle to call fowls with is also a good idea and doing a ref demo of what whistle blows mean for players could also be useful. Such as two sharp blows for a fowl that requires a tap out, and one long blow for end of regulation time. still don't know what red card whistle blow would be but I imagine the ref would just be whistling their head off and then telling the player to exit the court.
I wonder if this thing is any good, or just a cheap waste of time......
http://www.marchants.com/Versus_Scoreboard_p/versus.htm?gclid=CIDpyJz7mq...
for $239 with the integrated stereo and remote score control that doesn't sound too bad.
Features
Scoreboard Features:
Period tracker
Home and guest score counter
Countdown/up timer and buzzer
Pocket-sized RF remote control
Super-bright sunlight-readable LEDs
A/C & Battery powered
Customizable face plates with various team and organizations
Multi-Format Audio Player Features:
Includes USB flash drive for MP3 playback
Analog Line-In 3.5mm jack for use with ANY audio device
User-controllable crowd noises and taunt effects
Two powerful 10W speakers
Versus Microphone (included)
Customizable team-specific chants
Another 40 USD for 8 rechargeable d-cell batteries, plus the charger.
I'd like to see how visible the display is outdoors.
239 isn't bad for a club purchase. 10-20 a head to have a cool thing, but you'd need one for every court if you're running a tournament.
Customizable team-specific chants
oh man I really really really really want to hear these chants...!!!
So has anyone ordered one of these?
i just had my first real tournament experience (thanks portland!) and I came away from it with a few ideas.
there were goal refs for most games and somewhat official reffing from the divider between both courts for the final few games
but a lot of earlier games had noone calling/enforcing yellow and red cards as was initally announced, or they were lost in spectators voices
refs with t-shirts and red or yellow cards to pull out might be a good way to go
Maybe walkie talkies and/or a bullhorn would be useful if obtainable?
it could be nice to offer people who commit to reffing a substantial number of games some sort of incentive - coffee, some beer, kickdowns from sponsors?
X10 for whistles!
mostly timekeeping was not super accurate but effective and fair as far as i saw, no biggie
scoreboard looks cool but a PA, some way of communicating with goal refs and HUGE scorecards would do great
One thing I was thinking about score keeping that is cheap and easy is two ring flip cards made of chloroplast and spray painted with bright numbers. I am going to make some of these before the next Portland tourney. I bet I can do it for under twenty dollars easy.
This is basically what Columbia Missouri did for the Midwest Champeenships last november. I bet it'll cost you 10 dollars at the most. you could also just use paper and laminate it.
I have a few comments about refs and reffing, yellow cards and red cards and the like. for the last four tournaments that have been to I have refereed several games. One of the things that I have noticed about being in that position is the degree to which players respect or do not respect the referees decisions in relation to calls made about the game and plays. another thing I noticed is that it is hard get a good perspective on what is going on on the whole court from different angles. I think more and more that if we are going to have a rules set and are going to enforce it the referees decisions need to be final. even if the referee is wrong or didn't see something that led to another thing that made what the ref saw invalid in the eyes of the player being called for a fowl. the only thing that will make refs work for our sport is respect for the calls. the whole point of the yellow and red card system is to keep play clean and keep the game safe for the players. in effect consequences for our actions, without those the game will continue to have bruisers and unsafe play and injuries. a red card ejection from the game is a serious threat to a team and its standing in the tournament, and actions that lead to that kind of ejection from a game should be seriously avoided. without any consequence what will stop players from getting heated and doing bad things to others that may or may not be questionable in their eyes at the time? what kind of consequences come from those actions? and do we care enough as a community to keep those situations to a minimum? in effect if we are going to use rules and refs can we agree to respect them and their calls or do we just want to call our own games?
NAH has a rules committee. You should be on it, imho. I have not heard anything from them in some time.
I can only echo your sentiments. NAH would really start to look like a useful body if it was able to provide good, strong referees for the "official" events.
BTW TimTim, remember that bullshit call in our game at the NA's? We just gave up arguing with that stubborn bastard of a ref despite the fact that the "shot" was merely a whack at the defender's mallet in front of the goal -- didn't even touch the ball. Everyone sitting by the goal said it was not a shot but the crowd was supposed to be ignored. Yeah, goal judges are a very nice thing.
NAH has a rules committee. You should be on it, imho. I have not heard anything from them in some time.
I can only echo your sentiments. NAH would really start to look like a useful body if it was able to provide good, strong referees for the "official" events.
Oh really? Have you started paying dues to NAH? Are they taking anything from you, your club, or your events?
They can only "provide" from what they are given. Right now, if you give them your support and constructive criticism, they will be able to return a little support. No one has the budgets or ability to train and dispense qualified refs to tourneys throughout the poloverse.
Bottom line: You want better officiating? Become a better official.
Demand to be allowed on the court. Work with two goal judges/linespeople. Buy a whistle. make some yellow/red cards. Review all the filmed games available on-line and test yourself on the rules. When you ref a game at a tourney, bring both teams to center court and tell 'em what to expect from you signal and penalty-wise. But don't complain on the internet that an all-volunteer group of organizers is somehow letting you down.
Lucky, NAH is a newly formed national body. I expect it will take quite a while before it gets to the point of being able to provide structure and support for "national" events. I, for one, expect it perform more functions than selection of teams for Worlds. Rules and officiating are core functions of an organizing body.
No one has the budgets or ability to train and dispense qualified refs to tourneys throughout the poloverse.
Of course no "one" does. It takes a village. We can absolutely make this happen if we want it to. When NAH is ready to take on the responsibility of accepting dues from members I'll be the first to submit payment.
Lucky, 1; I haven't paid dues to NAH because the system is not yet in place. However I have been a large part in the organization for fundraisers for our club so that we can put on tournaments for people in our region to come to. in effect raising money for polo and using my extra time to do so and to put on events for those purposes.
2;I feel that when asked and sometimes when not I have given feed back to regional reps and helped test new systems involved with rules and tournament format. 2a; I do not believe that budget is necessarily required to train refs.
3; I do want better officiating and part of the reason for the above post was to see what solutions might be offered up form the mass of ideas out there, good and bad experiences people have had, and thoughts about what might make for better officiating.
4; I do not feel that my being on the court would be safe. line judges are imperative and their calls should be final. I do bring the two team together and tell them what I will be looking for, and give a short recap for them so they can keep it fresh it their minds.
I apologize if my venting seemed terse, what I guess i really want to know is what peoples ideas are for refs to become better for the sport, also if they think we need refs at all, and if so why. I feel like some big steps have been made this year towards the organization of our beloved sport. I also think people are going to need to adjust to some of the changes that are coming about, and hopefully we all can come to some middle ground that everyone can respect as a community.
I did a little volunteer umpiring at the Australian nationals last september. We had a goal umpire and a back-up goal umpire at each end of the court so that there were two pairs of eyes when a mess of bikes and bodies were around goal. I was situated on the side of the court (standing on a park bench which gave me a better vantage point to make calls on general play) The Scorer and time keeper (two separate roles) were on the opposite halfway line. There were therefor nine sets of "official" eyes on the game. As confusing as this sounds the separation of roles meant that there was less confusion and less chance of missing play when checking a watch or turning a score card.
Refs (or umpires) need to be able to make quick and clear judgements on play so the game keeps moving, they need a loud enough voice to be heard and a thick enough skin not to cave under back-chat. A good understanding of the rules is essential but so is a good understanding of the spirit of the game.
Play by tournament rules, don't be a dick and the ref's decision is final. Cop it on the chin if you disagree.
(Australia was knocked out of the last soccer world cup on a dodgy ref call and we only took a year or two to stop bitching)
You guys don't need to apologize to me. My reply was probably more open to interpretation as bulldogging or counter-complaining (which is still just complaining) than your comments.
For sure, having a well defined and understood rule set is step one in this process of getting even officiating, and that effort is underway. The more feedback we give the rules committee, the sooner they'll be able to establish procedure.
The next step would be to have a coupla meetings or something at NAs and other large tourneys where a lot of likely refs are going to be. Live demos with players on bikes showing the gray areas in the rules and what to look for re: elbows or other contact questions, so we're all on the same page. If folk from the rules committee are going to be in Madison, I would love to attend such a demo/ref training in my off time.
As for where to be on/next to the court. It's tough, like you said. The first tourney I went to that used refs, I volunteered and headed straight out to the center of the court. I spent a few games standing in the center circle watching play go back and forth and looking at the nets straight on. Play moved around me fine and no one came close to hitting me. At some point, someone complained and I moved to the sideline, where I have reffed every game I've been asked to since.
More officials (one on each end, and one on each side) would theoretically make reffing more even, assuming they knew who to consult with/differ to and were all looking for the same things. But finding 4 (or 5 with a records-keeper/timer) people to ref every game of a contest is proving difficult. Putting someone on the court on foot or in fruit boots would maybe require less of organizers.
Thanks guys, these are the kind of comments and feedback I am looking for. I think that the suggestion of having two refs on the sideline and a line judge at each end sounds doable and effective. I also agree that the refs need to be thick skinned and not fall in to sideline jeers from spectators. The Ringer and I where discussing reffing at polo on Sunday and he suggested the idea of a yellow card explanation to the player upon receiving a card, wherein the player who committed the offense would go to the ref and have it explained to them as play continues without them. This would serve as a penalty and reminder to the player. I think the important thing to make it work would be having a whistle so you can get the players attention. What do you think?
I like the idea...but the flaw is that the person would know that it is a foul and would not need it explained to him or her. Anybody who has been playing for more than a year knows when they make a dangerous foul. Yellow cards are for dangerous play if I understand correctly. Fighting red card. Decision about what offence gets what is a major area of clarification.
what's the ref watching while he's explaining the call as the play continues?
good point peter. See this is why we need more heads in the action to debunk ideas that may not quite work. though if there where a ref at either side of the court it could work. four refs per match might be a logistical nightmare though. sometimes it seems hard enough just to get one ref and two line judges.
The key is to have one strong ref and a few sharp eyed deputies.. The Ref holds the trump and wrangles the play, the deputies have very specific duties (goal-line calls, timekeeping etc.)
I understand the need for refs but I would like the trump to go to the opposing team. There has been to many high intense games where the refs call one thing and all the players on the court agree the ref was incorrect. the whole point of a ref is to make an objective call When needed, if the two teams agree then the ref should stay out of it. The ref should call for dangerous plays and stop the game for that reason only. All other calls should only be made when opposing teams disagree on something in the game. At that point the ref makes the call and its the final say. We have created are own sport lets keep with that and create our own reffing system.
Good call Leon, (sounds like you'd make a good ref!)
I agree that the ref should only step in on any call that has conjecture. i love this sport in large part because it is player run and player driven. I can't see how a ref could do a really good job without being a player (past or present). Common sense regarding enforcement of rules should have refs listening to players as much as players listening to them. I also agree that dangerous play is where refs should also step in. Sometimes, given the generally friendly/social nature of polo some teams may not feel comfortable making that kind of call.
It is important, however, that players don't get away with it...enter ref.
T
Seems like for now the organizing club should decide to what level their tournament will be officiated. Who is responsible for NAHBPC and WHBPC respectively? Will competitors also be aloud to be officials?
P/M Hardcourt