Realy Jinxy....
Swingin your rear to block or check
Not sure really what to call this move, but it came up in this weekends friendlies. Sorry if this has been discussed before, there are 90 pages of rules/discussions.
For the players with a front brake that can lift their rear wheel and swing around:
some players use that technique to swing into another players bike or make the block.
What would the ruling be if contact is made and it makes the opposing player dab? Some players with a rear brake and awesome skidding skills can slide themselves into the opponent creating the screen or forcing them down.
I know there is bike on bike, but would this unnecessary roughness be allowed? or considered in the same category as a sliding tackle?
"Who is the biggest hater?"
dude, you and Joker were fighting about it, so I put it on the threads. obviously if two people are yelling at each other on the courts about a technical issue then there needs to be some clarification... nothin on you Joey, i just want to be able to give a definite answer next time there is a fight.
and yes, that photo is exaggerated to get my point across on the action of the bike. (try typing in 'rear wheelie bicycle' on google, i mean... what else are you supposed to call it?)
the question is: in this case is bike on bike allowed when a tail whip is involved.
Joey, this was a question to clear this shit up between you and Joker. I wasn't calling you out or saying its against the rules. i was asking the opinion of the people on this board. who knows, they might just rule in your favor of that style of blocking you do.
(try typing in 'rear wheelie bicycle' on google, i mean... what else are you supposed to call it?)
Its called an endo.
Geneva had this rule for the euro's:
7.8 - Incidental bike-to-bike contact is fine. Throwing a rear wheel into another player's bike and T-boning is not permitted.
"photo is exaggerated to get my point across "
Thats not exaggerated I know a guy who does that, some times just as high almost taking heads off and it is fucking stupid. Thats just my opinion.
I think bike/bike is the least encouraged like contact. If you hit someone or their bike with any force with this tricky maneuver I'd say you fucked up, but otherwise go for it.
I think your back wheel might end up in places opponents don't expect, which is kind of the point, but people might slam it. I don't think either of you can be mad really, but expect to get hassled (I've seen people pissed when fixed riders go backwards a foot...).
I've seen people pissed when fixed riders go backwards a foot...
From my experience this is usually when someone has the ball moving fast in a straight line, the defender is out of position and backs right up into the line of the offender at the last second, causing them to lose the ball and crash.
Dick move, hence the hassle.
You see guys with free wheels trying to roll back all the time I don't see why its a big deal. If you are working someone along the boards or trying to get away, I see it as a useful skill but if you are using it to T bone or mess someone up then it is lame. That is an advantage of having a fixed gear. lots of the guys on fixed gears cant do some little tricks that freewheelers can?
x2 x2.
the only "bike on bike contact allowed" rule is shit, and it can't realy be an efficient concept in decent set of rules. Most of bikes contacts made with speed are really dangerous and really hazardous...
Bike on bike contact with the exception of incidental contact was not allowed at the NAHBPC.
Bike on bike contact is rarely a good thing is all I'm saying.
There was too much shit going on at NAHBPC that you would even say that! Too many bs calls and no goal judges to call the right ones. There is no future for these single refs in bike polo.......... There was A LOT of bike on bike contact!
There was too much shit going on at NAHBPC that you would even say that! Too many bs calls and no goal judges to call the right ones. There is no future for these single refs in bike polo.......... There was A LOT of bike on bike contact!
I'm not entirely sure what you are trying to say. But I understand that you are still mad.
The only thing arguable in my post is the statement "Bike on bike contact is rarely a good thing is all I'm saying."
I stand by that statement. Bike on bike contact is rarely a good thing.
I agree that the bike on bike contact is dangerous, but It will never stop! I am not upset anymore about that game, just saying that there were some bs calls throughout the entire tournament. For the topic though, I skid a lot and use it when I need to. I will not skid in front of another person if we are going pretty fast though! Although I will skid in front of someone to prevent them from moving.
I like how the euros put it. I'm not a huge fan of skid checks used offensively either and I feel like this is much more dangerous.
After today's sassion on The Pit, I was curious to know how people felt about this situation I ended up in:
Guy on opposite team with ball is behind me working his way towards my goal, we're both cycling towards the net at pretty slow speeds, and I slow down pretty hard which means he crashes into my back wheel just hard enough that he looses his balance and puts his foot down but nothing major. This was an accident on my part but was wondering how people felt about this as a bike-bike check, as long as it's within safe speeds?
of all the bike-on-bike checks you can do, this has to be the most benign. they're following too close and can't stay on their bike, sucks to be them.
Having only read this and not seen it, I'd say you had position on the player with the ball and thereby were not a dick. It's their job to go around you or otherwise put the ball through goal. They need to see you and not dab to do either of those things. Sometimes I find it helps to make kissey noises, cluck, or slap my mallet to help wishful non-lookers know that I'm infront of them. If they hit you they're the dick, in my view. If you grabbed brake hard giving them no option to not crash then youre a dick. Or they suck. But you had position.
Shizez though - harden up - you're in NY! Sound like a softie from California or something ...
Smiles,
Devin
Hmm tough call, I think I might have been ok that time..fine for pick-up probably.
RE toughening up, just trying not to be a dick but still play tougher. Also new to the scene so trying not to impose myself too much. Nothing worse than an obnoxious newbie.
i think it's shitty. i don't mind getting hit with a shoulder or a mallet because those like contacts are somewhat controlled. bike on bike intentionally just seems like someone is going to get really hurt one day if not already.
fuck getting tangled up in a bike. just play the ball.
Swinging your rear to block (without any contact, or as long as the other player is aware of the contact) = fine.
Swinging your rear to check (contact/player being unaware or unable to react) = fucked up.
this isn't grass polo, you aren't promised a line in front of your bike. people can zoom in front of you, and full stop. it's just dangerous when you do a full stop endo and put A) yourself at risk for going over the bars, breaking your wrists, bashing your head, destroying your bike, etc and B) others at risk for putting your wheel on their body, disc brakes can cut, spokes can get tangle fingers, rims can cut facial tissue, etc.. or worse, C) put both players (and others, perhaps a player behind you two) at risk of being injured.
Sounds like you guys in CA were just playing pickup/being a little competitive. who the fuck needs to check someone off their bike in friendlies/pickup? it happens when you get competitive, but keep in mind, it's just a game.. can't play all day when people are getting hurt with checks. likewise, you can't keep players from getting brrrrr-oken! broken players = 1 less pickup player. In Denver, being 1 less pickup player would ruin pickup. it may also affect the next week's pickup, and the week after... in other places, not so much, but still, the point is that we are trying to be altruistic to each other for the sake of longetivity, winning a pickup game doesn't mean anything unless you had fun. checking people off their bike is not fun (for the person being taken out. hurting someone to the point where they will never compete again goes against rule number 1, and generally everyone else should frown upon you.
Like Devin/nedder(sf) says, you should make the player with the ball aware of what's going on(whistle, bird call, mallet tap, say "pass it here!") therefore when you block them out, they know where you are and you aren't making them crash into your back rim and eat shit unless they purposefully ride into your rim and eat shit. even then, you shouldn't purposefully knock your bike into theirs, thems NA rules pardner.
my style of play went from this: suckitude, physical (including bike on bike checks) to finesse with safety. I think all players go through the same process, maybe not. At a certain point you realize that there are other human beings and they don't deserve to get BRRRROKEN for your inane moves. I still play physical, but I do it with finesse, you know I'm coming and I'm not gonna hit you in the back with a blind check and knock you off the bike when you're on the ball. I just ride next to you, make you play around me, and hopefully force a good play (for my side). good players allow others to play with finesse without hurting them.
this is all just my opinion, hope it helps.
good players allow others to play with finesse without hurting them.
this sums it up perfectly.
good players allow others to play with finesse without hurting them.
this sums it up perfectly.
Yes it is a beautiful statement... but this is a competition. I don't think I am at all a rough player and I'm not really coming at this from how I play but what I've seen on the court. Rough play is effective!
no doubt. anybody can play rough tho. not everybody can play with finesse. i feel that if you consistently resort to rough play to try to neutralize opponents its just a way to make up for what you lack in skill to accomplish the same end, and sooner or later its going to get someone hurt.
i don't think whether you are playing more or less competitively (pickup or tournament final) is relevant. just because the competition is more intense doesn't mean you need to play more or less roughly. it doesn't matter who i am playing, the same rule applies: i don't want to hurt anybody and i want my opponents to give me the same respect of not doing something stupid that could injure me.
i don't want to hurt anybody and i want my opponents to give me the same respect of not doing something stupid that could injure me.
I agree 100%. That's why Finesse polo will eventually overcome. Our derivative sport, Horse Polo, has specific rules so that not only the riders won't be hurt but their horses as well. We should be so lucky that our bikes are built to withstand controlled play. But even stupidity can result in a tacoed rims, snapped forks, and unfortunately, injuries.
this looks like an inadvertent t-bone, not a swinging check on ben's part
Its not a swing endo per se. But it was a t-bone and skid into the front wheel of another player.
Did you watch this particular game? I imagine you did.
To me it looks like he just rode in front of him and stopped. Looked like the ball carrier (Jonny) came into the defender (Ben) because he was looking down at the ball and trying to get around him. I think the defender in this situation has the right to stop whenever he wants. You gotta watch where you're going and make sure your line isn't obstructed. That's not anyone else's job to do it for you! Happens to people all the time, though. Myself included! If anything, I think that's a penalty on the ball carrier for carrying his motion into a stopped player.
We pride ourselves on being good technical bike riders. I don't see why this should be an exception. He tried a move (ball on one side of defender, go around the other side) and it didn't work because the defense saw it and stopped it. Fair's fair.
Maybe this edit isn't long enough.
But what you said is the exact opposite of what I feel.
This was a skid with a rear wheel into a ball handler's front wheel. The wheel is in motion when it STRIKES the front wheel.
I wouldn't say it' a skid, but it def a short stop to block an offensive move and was defenders fault on that. totally. i don't think this falls under a skid check at all.
So you guys think it is your fault if someone runs into your bike? So the rule would be that if you are going in front of someone you have to keep going like they expect until you are completely clear of their path? Dude hit the ball in front of the other guy and tried to cut around the back a little too close and too fast. This crash had little to do with what the defender did or didn't do.
i think it's your fault of you postion your self in front of someone like that. everytime i watch it it looks like the dude pulled his brake. it just looks like a fuck up, maybe, but that falls pretty close to a tbone. i'll watch it a few more times, but it totally looks like the dude stopped/slowed down enough to cause the collision.
Keep your head up Jonny. Fair play.
In slow motion you can actually see that the wheel never stops moving. The spokes continue to rotate, meaning the wheel was not locked and pretty much on track.
If he had skid in a noticeable way into the oncoming ball handler, I'd say you're right but that's not what happened. He did not skid and his wheel remained on line.
looks like a bad fakie to me. all his body language indicated he was continuing his path, turning to his right, and the defender was just turning to follow him. the dude with the ball just didn't turn sharp enough to get around his rear wheel in time. I don't see how that could ever be called on the defender. but it is 7 seconds of footage so whatever, refs gotta take into account how a player is behaving as a whole.
the line between "t-bone" and "shoulda been watching where you were goin" is a blurry one indeed.
i see the legality of these t-bone style incidents more from basketball's offensive and defensive foul perspective. If a defender is set up, planted, not moving and allowing the offensive player the opportunity to avoid a crash, and the ball handler still runs into them then the liability is on the offensive player. in the above situation there was no other possible outcome than that lovely endo, and i think thats what the defender intended. i'd be pissed.
EDIT: ok, so after reading some more responses i am beginning to change my stance a bit. yes i do think the offensive player is mostly at fault in this situation because his attention was on the ball and not on what was going on in front of him. but i still think that the defensive player has partial responsibility and purposefully attempted to crash (not just block) the player he was checking by slowing down at the last second, and he could have avoided the offensive player by speeding up a bit, and its that intention that i'm no so much a fan of. i think there needs to be a distinction made between a passive block and an aggressive one (that has a higher probability to cause an injurious crash). it may be within the guidelines of fair play, but those guidelines don't always coincide with the guidelines of nice play. regardless of the context, i think its a dick move when someone allows someone to crash like that regardless of who is at fault, when there is an opportunity for it to be avoided by either player. i respect the safety of my fellow players so i'd rather try to avoid causing my polo-bro to face plant.
i've seen this happen a lot, whether the defender skids or stops quickly with a front brake right in front of an offensive player. and depending on the speed and body positioning of each player, either one can go flying. its hard to tell where jonny was looking as he collided, but if he had jerked his wheel slightly he may have been able to maneuver around the wheel. also, i doubt he would have fallen on his face without being clipped in.
In any case if the defender challenges the offensive player and leaves him the option of escaping collision the defender has done no wrong doing. The offensive player does not have to accept the alternate route but if you don't, you crash, or maybe you don't maybe you crash the defender and stay on your bike.
In this case it looks like Jonny is setting up to try the 'around the tree' and gets caught watching his placement of his possible self pass and not his line around the defender.
**The important note: an offensive player can cause a t-bone too.
Good point, looks like jonny tries to put the ball on one side and then go on the other.
Here's my unsolicited low frame rate low res opinion.
Jonny got to the ball. To do that, his weight was way forward. Ben realized his brother was on a path to a fat goal, and hey, maybe grabbing brake while Jonny's chin is over the bars can prevent a fat goal for the other side. note that another option is to stand on the cranks turning and getting to the ball, or a good defensive position. But it's likely that Jonny laid something on Ben in the preceding minutes that made the grab fat brake decision easy.
Love you guys,
Devin
Watch that again, Ben doesn't begin to rise off his seat (or "brace for impact") until after the impact has already happened.
I don't even see Ben grabbing any brake here, he slows down a little in that he isn't pedaling the ENTIRE CLIP and is taking a turn, and gets hit directly in a wheel, which is guna slow you down, abruptly, but still not BEFORE the impact.
You can also see Johnny looking to his right when he puts the ball infront of Ben, and so you know he knew where Ben was at at least enough to do that, but you can see him glance back at Ben about a foot before they hit, and IMO the look on his face implies he has miscalculated something. (OHSHITFACE)
Johnny says Ben apologized, so I guess Ben sees something wrong with what he did here, but I sure as hell don't.
As far as lingo goes, locally we call them...
"swinging your rear to block/check" = tail whip
"swinging your rear IN THE AIR to block//check" = nose pivot
It just dawned on me, after almost three years, why Ben gets a pro discount from Swrve
I'm just gonna point out that ben apologized to me after this play.
Rightly so, both hands on bars, cuts recklessly across your path, unrealistically tries to affect your play, plays the bike not the ball and generally creates a dangerous situation without any finesse or class. A game of chicken where only one person's involved is not much of a game at all.
If you'd have looked up more you'd possibly have avoided the crash, but I'd have called that... it's not incidental, forgot the ifs/buts of what may have happened. You call what you see and that looked like reckless balls-to-the-wall aggression/pressure from a defender because they couldn't think of another way of getting the ball/stopping the player.
Hunter on Hunter Violence. Never a pretty sight.
During the slapdick tournament a couple years ago here in DC we had a player that did this a LOT. Everyone he played against was really pissed because he was always using this to block. People got really pissed about him not always playing the ball, and just blocking people in. I don't think its the same as sliding because your putting the rear tire way up in the air making it a lot more likely for someone to take a back wheel to the face or something. At least if you're sliding it's kept low.