Don't you think that it would be hard to tell when someone is leaning on the boards? Unless we specific that you can't be stationary and leaning on the boards or something. I kinda like that idea more now that you mention it.
Let's make this easier for the refs
Now that it's been a little while, I'm going to go ahead and express my displeasure with how the reffing was at Worlds, provide some suggestions, and make some general notes about the rule set.
There were way too many dangerous and blatantly irresponsible plays that were not even warned. The refs just plain didn't speak up enough. I hate to say this, but if you have a B-type personality or aren't the kind of person who is comfortable (nay, enjoys) yelling at large groups of people, you should not be reffing. Refs need to be vocal throughout the entire game, but productively so. Saying stuff like "hey watch the mallet!" isn't in any way productive. You need to inform the players about actions that you, as ref, are going to take. Tell them things like "next mallet under the front wheel is a double tap" or something similar. Also, there needs to be a lower tolerance on more dangerous plays. In the high-light video, when Capriotti T-bone/blasted Manu on L'Equipe, that should've been at the very least a double tap. Similarly when Dillman ran straight into my back wheel on Sunday. I'm not saying that either of these things were intentional and if they're accidents, they're certainly less reprehensible, but rules exist for a reason. However, a t-bone is a t-bone is a t-bone. You must penalize people for dangerous play even when it's accidental. Now that's not to say you should penalize someone who has their chain break or something. You get what I'm saying though. Inattention isn't an excuse as far as I'm concerned. There's no point in having a hierarchy of infractions if we don't use it accordingly.
There was a discussion about hands on the boards while playing the ball as well as keeping yourself up on the goal (during a play on goal and when you're not adjusting it) both being a dab, but I saw people do both of these things A LOT until later on Sunday. The problem is that it's really, really hard for a ref to see what's going on from where he's sitting. So I'd like to toss out a few ideas here. First off, the most important thing to do when designing a set of rules is to have them be easily enforceable. I feel that right now that's just not the case with bike polo. So what does it mean for something to be easily enforceable? It means two things, one: the rule is well defined with little gray areas and two: breaking of the rule are easy to observe. So again, first, easy to determine IN PRINCIPLE when rules are broken and second, easy to determine IN PRACTICE when rules are broken. Now I'm going to give some examples of rules that fall short in one of those two ways.
RULES WITH GRAY AREAS
1) What exactly is 'incidental' bike on bike contact? What I think of when I hear 'non-incidental' is intentional. That is to say, you cannot intentionally put your bike into someone else's bike. But people do this all the time. If I'm sprinting forward with the ball on my right and someone is slowly coming into my line at a 90 degree angle, some folks feel that I should have every right to push the ball under or around them and "power through" their front wheel. That means intentionally putting your front wheel into someone else's because you know that you have the momentum and they'll just barspin/jackknife and because you're hardcore. They call it incidental because I'm really just trying to carry the ball forward and I recognize that given their position, they can't stop me. However, I feel that allowing that could get quite dangerous. So my proposed solution: allow front wheel on front wheel contact in front of the fork at low speed. I say in front of the fork because you can hit someone's front wheel and t-bone them quite easily. Now I know someone's going to say that "low speed" is a gray area. I don't think we can do any better though. The question here is which is easier, defining low speed or defining incidental. I think the former not by a longshot.
2) Bike to mallet contact - there's actually nothing in NAH about this topic. Obviously I shouldn't be able to ride my front wheel into a tripoded mallet head and claim that they have to tap for making me dab. But should I be able to roll up next to someone who is tripoded and swing my wheel into their mallet? I think so. The way I think we should deal with these sorts of scenarios is as follows: First off, you obviously can't tripod directly in front of someone's front wheel, causing them to dab if they roll forward. It's bullshit to claim "WELL MY MALLET WAS THERE FIRST" because that's not what the rule is or should be. Second, if a player is carrying the ball and does not initiate mallet to wheel contact, then they don't have to tap. Imagine the following two situations. 1) I'm moving forward with the ball on my right, shuffling it. It's making constant contact with my mallet, I'm pushing it along like a hobo with a shopping cart full of precious empty cans. Someone comes up on my right at such an angle that their front wheel runs over my mallet and they dab. I don't think that I should be required to dab because I didn't initiate the contact, they turned into me! But imagine another situation where you DO initiate the contact... (2) I'm shuffling the ball on my right just like before and someone is approaching me front my right. I go to make a shuffle pass, extend my mallet, and it goes under their front wheel. Even though I was playing the ball, I should have to dab there because I initiated contact. I think "I was just playing the ball" is a bullshit excuse for putting a mallet under a front wheel. What matters is who initiated contact, that is, who caused the mallet to go under the front wheel. So this can be applied to other situations as well and I think it's pretty easy to see when someone moved a mallet into someone's line vs. when someone aggressive takes space where a mallet already is.
RULES THAT ARE HARD TO SEE
1) Grabbing the boards and playing the ball - refs just don't have the best angle to see when someone's grabbing the boards. My solution: allow all of it. You can grab the boards, fence, whatever in any way you want AND play the ball at the same time with one exception: wasting time. Crandall smartly abused the hell out of this rule in one game at Worlds. The boards were on his right and the ball was between his front wheel and the boards. He was holding the boards with his mallet hand, clearly not playing the ball. But he was in the way and you couldn't foot him down. And it was perfectly legal. Still, it was kinda silly and I don't want to see it become common. Imagine 2 players on the same team pinning the ball in a corner, grabbing the boards, and holding on for dear life for minutes. BORING! So if you're trying to pin the ball and waste time, then I think you should be instructed to get rid of it. A ref should then shout "DELAY OF GAME" and count UP (not down, it's not the end of the game) to 5 seconds and if the ball isn't released and the player doesn't move by then, it should be a turnover or a dab or something. Pretty easy to ref, yeah? If you want to waste time, you should keep the ball moving and keep it away from the other team! The Europeans were very, very good at this. You see it in soccer all the time, just passing the ball around the back until you get under too much pressure, then clearing it as far from your goal as you can. That's fine.
2) Leaning on the goal - there are certainty perma-goalies who I will not name who blatantly lean against the goal the entire game. Their hips and steering forearms are against the top of the goal at all times. If you can hold your mallet straight up in the air for 3 seconds (while I'm trying to sweep it to move you) without shifting your body weight or moving at all (and you're not fixed or a member of Cirque du Soleil), then you're probably leaning on the goal. And that's bullshit. But it's really hard to tell when someone's leaning on the goal, especially if the goal is really heavy like at Worlds. So here's my solution: nobody can touch their own goal unless you're adjusting it and there's not a play happening. This should be EXTREMELY easy for the goal judge to see, especially if he's not standing directly behind the goal. If you're using the goal to stay up, then you're not using your bike handling skills and that's lame. But really, if you're a perma-goalie and you lean on the goal, you're not good at goalie, you're good at cheating. You know who you are.
That's about it, I'm tired of typing. There's more, I'm sure, and I'd really appreciate if others could bring up rules that they think are difficult to enforce either IN PRINCIPLE or IN PRACTICE and discuss alternatives. Thanks for your time.
Pro-friendly bike polo!
Nah, what if you get checked into the boards? ...you dab?! Grabbing the boards really doesn't help you that much, odds are that you are completely surrounded by defenders and just trying to move the game along. If you mess with it too long, you get called for delay.
I agree with all this, but also I ask myself: "Have you ever been to a tournament where a team who cheated outside the bounds of normal error actually won?"
What's the true motive behind setting up a style of tournament in which penalties have a strong impact on the game? What's the goal in a 30 second penalty? Is it to correct behavior and create a deterrent? Is it to give the other team an advantage because they were previously disadvantaged?
We are so inclined to right wrongs. "Hey this guy fuckin' t-boned me, someone fix this injustice! I've been wronged!". But take the Dillman t-bone in your game. Like you said, it was not intentional and a penalty to me takes away from the spirit of our particular style of competition.
If I made the rules, the only thing that the referee would be allowed to do is to blow the whistle, stop play, and allow a change of possession. Stopping play gives the referee time to explain, and the penalty is sufficient but minor enough to fit exactly into what we're trying to do at tournaments - which is improve bike polo and push things to the next level, constantly. Timed penalties and double taps are for the birds, man. Change of possession, explanation, and a refocus on clean play. Then the whistle blows again and you just keep fucking going.
The better/hotter team will always win.
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The goal of penalties is both as a deterrent and to provide an advantage to make up for a previous disadvantage. A change of possession is a much bigger penalty than you think, especially if you're giving the other team half-court as well. And if you're not giving them half court, how exactly do we regulate how the team that is giving up possession places themselves on the court?
I don't understand what you mean by "our particular style of competition". I saw a shit ton of disputes concerning calls before, during, and after games at NAs and Worlds. I'm just trying to provide ways to avoid those disputes.
I don't understand why you'd think that having the ref do more would somehow delay the improvement of bike polo and/or pushing things to the next level. I think that a clearer and more consistent ruleset would help, lots of the disputes I saw wouldn't have happened, making for a more fluid and just generally friendlier game.
Pro-friendly bike polo!
I believe the only path to better refereeing is increasing the consistency of refs. If NAH ever collected dues, a top priority for spending that money should be better more consistent reffing. Providing travel money for known, respected refs would mean the quality goes up immediately. Anyone receiving the money is not allowed to compete in the tourney, they are there with a job to do.
Online debates about written rules have limited value. You must practice in the real world to get better at something.
I think most people agree that refs should be paid, recruited, and trained. Now we're just waiting for a major tournament to make it happen. I'd be willing to ref, that's for sure.
Pro-friendly bike polo!
My 2 cents
Pete's solution is interesting but I think it puts too much power in the hands of the ref, which is the same problem we already have. (stay with me) The ref choosing to call or not call is based on some sort of bias. Maybe its a bias on what team they like more, or a bias of if they want to make calls or not, or (the one we all have) the bias to call a game based on the way YOU play the game.
incidental bike on bike
I hate any rules having to do with this, there will always be some form of inconsistent judgement that will most likely benefit some team more.
My remedy Option 1: Get the proper amount of refs you need a court. Ex. 1 court = 3 refs. Why 3? Center judge and 2 goal judges. All refs can make calls and all refs can conference about a questionable goal or call. NOW HERE IS THE IMPORTANT PART! - these 3 refs must ref EVERY game, this means they don't play! This sucks for the refs but let's be honest, how many other sports to the refs finish up a game and then play one in the same tournament?!? Dont like that well then how about option 2, we stop refereeing completely and go back to self-officiated games. These are the only ways I see it be a fair game. Either you pick justice by whistle or justice by play. (if your butthole just tightened, chillout and read the rest first)
bike mallet.
There is no bike on mallet contact allowed. What's it like rule number one? Like contact only. Stop messin' with the goalie pete!
grabbing.
I hate all of this, because if you grab the wall/fence/whatever and I check you, o damn you broke your wrist. This rule is for the safety of the players and helps keep the game at a quickened pace. JUST STOP GRABBING ON SHIT. but yea no rule needed, just realize why the rule is intended to be there.
leaning.
I used to be really passionate about this until I realized it doesn't matter. If you can place your shot well enough or get plenty of shots on goal then it won't matter if the goalie's foot is on the ground too. I agree that this it unfair for the team not doing it but this is another issue that can be corrected with my suggestion of 3 committed refs or "on-court" player officiation.
Good luck sorting this out, it's all a mess.
"wear a face mask or duck" - Tall George
stick 2 da code, stop snitchin'
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the ref should be on the court moving around with the play.
grabbing and leaning, i dont really care. you could be in goal and holding on the crossbar, and you still wont be better than somebody with decent bike control. that is just my opinion. leaning and touching. i just dont think this is practically enforceable-if i get put into the boards that would be a dab? smaller government regulations... that is why i say just allow holding.
the ref should be on the court moving around with the play.
this x a million
x2. all of it.
Fascinating.
I've never seen it so don't have much of an opinion. Does it really work? On foot running up and down court? It's hard for me to visualize. Maybe I'm used to smaller courts where it seems less workable?
I think best would be one center ref and two good goal judge/refs. I hate it when the goal judge is the nearest drunk. Especially when I'm that drunk.
Let goal judges call fouls in front of the net and in the corners.
2008 NACCC, Chicago. One of my first polo memories is of Ben Schultz reffing: running around, jumping and clinging to fences to evade the play and so on, all while keeping his eyes locked on the action. The mobile ref sees a lot more than the tennis-style ref, and I'm willing to bet that they would hardly, if ever, find themselves accidentally interfering with a play.
It'd be a workout in its own right, though.
I've thought about bring my blades to the next tournament i go to and trying to ref that way, not a quaifier, a small one to try it out. I'm good enough ( and i'm sure there are others out there) on skates to keep up with play and stay out of the way, i think a mobile ref would see way more.
Keep your standards low, and morale high.
remmerb that guy on a bmx bike though in NYC at BM. that kinda was int eh way. like the roller skate/blades idea for moving around though
the fuckin ref doesn't have to tap in on a dab, why complicate things with more wheels? bipedal referee for the win!
ref on the court is clearly the best option. Think of any other free-flowing game akin to ours (hockey, bball etc.) and how they are effectively officiated. Stripes has gotta be able to move with the play. That being said, are we gonna find enough refs who wanna run/skate that much in the hot sun?
Did it happen in MKE this last weekend?
SF was low key, mostly just score keeping, if that. (Good idea: ref writes down goal scorers on a card.) I found myself on court during games a few times. As I dodged players the thought in my brain was fuck that, i hate running i'm a cyclist. I see a volunteer challenge with this idea.
the days of 38 special are over joel. Leave it to the .22's
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West and East squash the beef
That shit 's legit as fuck!
For card. In EHBPC 10 in GVA we made card for games:
Every players was a number between 1 and 3 includes. The Ref just had to put a cross in a square when a player score. It give a real short and incomplete but usefull history of a game, who score, when. If there is any complain at the end, the ref can argue with something in his hands.
Also number make call easier when a ref don't know names of the players. And know who score can be usefull also for the MVP selection.
This deserve maybe a thread.
Absolutely. Ref cards with player names from here forward for me.
Medic, ya gotta use all the guns. .22s can be unreliable and hard to motivate. Admittedly, so can .44s. Don't matter much to me i'm a get the job done kind of guy.
This is a very interesting thread to me, as I am designated head ref for the UK National Series.
I totally agree with what commenters have said above about refs needing to be vocal & that we need non-playing refs. However, at no National Series event have we had more than 1 non-playing ref.
Considering this, and also the fact that, in my opinion & experience no-one can concentrate on game-play for more than 40 mins at a stretch, and also that Swiss makes it virtually impossible to draw up a schedule for player refs in advance, and also that getting refs can delay time-pressed tournaments (to the point where we had a tournament final in virtual darkness), we have adopted the following system for the NS, winners stay on to ref as a team. The big advantage of this system is two-fold:
1. you always have a set of refs on court and ready to go
2. all the players start to think about, and evaluate the rules in a way they simply do not do if they only play & never ref.
the biggest disadvantage is, of course, inconsistent reffing. I have no answer to this, except that as players have done more reffing, they have gotten better.
For later knockout rounds, I, or some other experienced & competent ref, have taken reffing duties, so at least the finalists get consistent reffing.
This is the best solution that I could come up with to ensure that no one ended reffing more than 6 games in a day (having to do more games is a serious imposition, in my view, for players) and that there was always refs available.
Until we have a situation where tournaments start paying at least the travel & accomodation of non-playing refs, I can't see a better solution, although I am always willing to listen to other suggestions (this system was developed after lots of discussion with UK players).
I was also interested to see suggestions that refs need to be on court to ref effectively. I have been thinking the same thing, and have been experimenting with it a little. I had thought that the refs ought to be on skates, or bikes, but I am not sure how this would work, so I may restrict it to running around the court, as an experiment.
The three things that make reffing the hardest are: (according to my experience, which is subject to my personality and relationships within the poloverse, etc, etc, caveats, salt)
1. By a long shot, the number one problem with reffing you animals is that you are not whistle trained. Whistle means stop. Right where you are, whatever you're doing. No late hits, no shots after time stops.
2. What makes for inconsistent reffing is changing dynamics throughout a tournament. There are games that neither side is particularly serious about (which is fine). Maybe it's early in the tourney, maybe the teams are mismatched, maybe they just there to have fun (god forbid). Then there are games when, for whatever reason of struggle to stay alive, history between teams, spicy food at lunch, otherwise fair-minded players get super brutal. If you called everything you saw, there would be no one on the court. You've got to let the presiding dynamic of that particular game set the base level of your reffing, which *in practice* means contact that would get a penalty in one game doesn't in another. sux.
3. Which brings me neatly to the third thing. As a ref, I want to be fair, I want to call every infraction I see to train the players to give it their best within the rules we all agreed on before we started. But sometimes you just can't. Sometimes you can tell that you're influencing the outcome of the game. It's bitter and it's crappy, but people complain way louder about a tainted final score than an uncalled penalty. That's the compromise that I couldn't swallow. So I stopped reffing. That's just me though.
Wanna buy some polo stuff?
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Regarding #1 - another problem is that typically the courts are in close proximity to each other so you're hearing whistles all the time from other courts.
Regarding #3 - you're exactly right about the current attitudes of many polo folks, but I think it's just plain ass-backwards. If the ref is consistent, then the only people who influence the outcome of the game are the players. If you call a penalty for something that merited one and the crowd gets pissed at you, they're in the wrong, not you. When a team wins by 1 in sudden death because of a 30sec penalty, the only person responsible for making the game end that way is the player who committed the foul. I totally see what you're saying and it saddens me to agree with you about how people feel, but this ref-hating dynamic is one that should change. And if it doesn't, think about it this way: do you want the respect of the fans or the respect of the players in the game? I'd say the latter and no rational player should be pissed off if you make the right call, regardless of how it affects the game. The only reason a player should be pissed at the ref is because he missed a call or made the wrong call, no exceptions.
Pro-friendly bike polo!
yes! whistle means stop.
im new to reffing but feel comfortable calling play with my interpretation of the rules and having folks yell at me if they dont like it..
but what is the most frustrating is: i call out stop play, cause something seems amiss, then no one stops. so i let the action play out with eyes tight, and then in the end when i make a final call, some folks get uptight saying somethings amiss
i said stop, you didnt, i moved on.
you can have it both ways
i like this idea of refs on the court..
3. Which brings me neatly to the third thing. As a ref, I want to be fair, I want to call every infraction I see to train the players to give it their best within the rules we all agreed on before we started. But sometimes you just can't. Sometimes you can tell that you're influencing the outcome of the game. It's bitter and it's crappy, but people complain way louder about a tainted final score than an uncalled penalty. That's the compromise that I couldn't swallow. So I stopped reffing. That's just me though.
I don't agree with this. A dirty game needs to be stopped, and penalties enforced. If the players involved aren't capable of playing to the previously agreed rules, then it is their problem, not the ref's, if the game is constantly stopped. The fact that the ref is stopping the game, and thereby influencing the outcome is unfortunate, but merely the consequence of the player's actions.
I am well-known in Europe for being a 'strict', 'hard', 'tough' ref, but I have reffed plenty of games where the only time I have blown the whistle is to start the game, register goals & at the end of the game - because the players played within the rules, as far as I could see.
In my experience, the majority of players respect reffing that is fair, even when you call fouls on them.
3. Which brings me neatly to the third thing. As a ref, I want to be fair, I want to call every infraction I see to train the players to give it their best within the rules we all agreed on before we started. But sometimes you just can't. Sometimes you can tell that you're influencing the outcome of the game. It's bitter and it's crappy, but people complain way louder about a tainted final score than an uncalled penalty. That's the compromise that I couldn't swallow. So I stopped reffing. That's just me though.
I don't agree with this. A dirty game needs to be stopped, and penalties enforced. If the players involved aren't capable of playing to the previously agreed rules, then it is their problem, not the ref's, if the game is constantly stopped.
+1
A dirty game needs to be stopped, and penalties enforced. If the players involved aren't capable of playing to the previously agreed rules, then it is their problem, not the ref's, if the game is constantly stopped.
+1
... the only thing that the referee would be allowed to do is to blow the whistle, stop play, and allow a change of possession.
I like the consensus that seems to be forming here. I don't think that change of possession is much of a influence on a game unless one side is out of shape and should lose anyway. That would solve (in my view) another of Lucky's objections ... ref being anxious about having too much sway on an outcome.
A possible solution to the multi whistle problem would be to have a noticeably different whistle tone for each court. No player wants to accidentally turn off the gas and get beat because they were trying to be honorable. Only the one on court/otherwise ref per game gets a whistle. Line judges yell at the ref with the whistle when necessary.
Devin
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Emperor Norton would have played bike polo equal como el Vaquila hubiese jugado bike polo!
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Credo quia absurdum
What abut playing advantages?
For example, you are on the offense and have a clear line at goal and a defender takes out "ya boy" who is trying to hold a screen but gets taken out illegally, whistle blows and play stops immediately. Should the play continue until your offensive run is over and then a penalty is issued or does this not bother anyone else?
"wear a face mask or duck" - Tall George
stick 2 da code, stop snitchin'
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Advantage and/or delayed penalty!!
yes to delayed calls on some penalties which confer an advantage to the violator. knowing if/when/how long to correctly delay a call is what makes a good referee.
What abut playing advantages?
For example, you are on the offense and have a clear line at goal and a defender takes out "ya boy" who is trying to hold a screen but gets taken out illegally, whistle blows and play stops immediately. Should the play continue until your offensive run is over and then a penalty is issued or does this not bother anyone else?
allow bike fighting!
x2
"wear a face mask or duck" - Tall George
stick 2 da code, stop snitchin'
http://www.scarylarrykbp.org/
http://www.fixcraft.net/
http://321polo.net/
One of the biggest difference between european scene and NA one, is the mallet under wheel rule enforcement.
In NA, in a lot of situation, mallet under wheel who make the opponent dab mean nothing, play continue, sometimes the guilty player apologies and in a few cases he goes tap out.
In Europe (at least in the last tourney i went, and in pick ups), players who make the fool go really often tap out and give the ball back to the opponent, without any reffing work.
This should be like for dabbing, the ref don't have to wistle to make people enforce the rule. It should be the same for the mallet under the wheel.
Im not talking about the grey cases, but clearly when a player try to get the ball in front of an opponent wheel. I really don't see the point about let the ball to someone's team who force a guy to dab by trying to get the ball in a situation he shouldn't or he could but really carefully. At the end it penalize a lot the victime.
Mallet under wheel meant ball turnover, half court and game one, as simple as going tap out for dabbin'.
That's not my experience in NA Clement. If a wheel swipe is clearly the defenders fault and the game is being reffed that person will be told to tap, if they hadn't already gone to do so. It's a rare case in my experience where somebody straight swipes another players wheel and the person with the ball had absolutely nothing to do with it though, grey areas like you said and very difficult to make immediate calls on. I don't agree though that in NA we ignore blatant mallet swipes and let play continue, maybe you had a bad or unlucky experience but we like good polo here too buddy and I at the very least agree with your last sentence completely.
I saw a few people tap out by thesemelves or being call to tap out, but no ball turnover.
What i saw was:
In NA the doubt was against the victim in the major cases, so the game continue and nothing happens to the ball possession. And even when the player who is guilty go tap out or get called to do it, a teamate of him can take the ball and continue to play.
In Europe the doubt is most of the time for the victime, so the guilty player let the ball, go tap or not but give some space (not every time half court) and the game begin again.
I agree with you that my classification is probably way too much and things are more balanced than NA VS EUROPE way of handle the rule. But Greg told me the same "here people don't really care as european about mallet to the wheel, they don't stop the game and don't give ball turnover". And i think i didn't see one during my three months here, and i saw 2 or 3 of them in one tourney back in europe.
(By the way, i miss you all!!!)



























Why not just do away with grabing, leaning, foot on vertical, blah blah blah!!!! if you in any way touch the boards, YOU DAB OUT! simple...
EVBP
Northern Standard