Can I sub for you at DPI? :)
(That sucks, hopefully Fleet Velo will take care of you.)
FULLY PRO: Time 4 Real Fuxing Reeferys
I saw my first fully dedicated referee in the spring of 2012, at the menace ESPI, wearing a Ben Schultz costume. It was tight - someone actually travelled to a polo tournament expecting to referee the entire time. And he did a solid fucking job.
It is clear by all of the useless internet bitching, moaning, whining, and straight up nonsense, that some want change for the benefit of the integrity and sportsmanship of bike polo. It is my belief that the only logical step forward is the use of referees who have a thorough knowledge of our game play and who also maintain a level of respect and confidence. We need referees at our tournaments who came to be referees. And maybe some free beer.
Now you may be thinking, "that is fucking ridiculous, no one is actually going to that shit." Well your wrong. The "closed region" qualifiers provides an opportunity to attend NAH tournaments as a non-playing ref. You have the opportunity to travel to a tournament, hang out with your buds, play some polo, and forget about the stress of competing. For some this is incentive enough. Perhaps NAH tournament organizers can get behind this effort and help offer non-playing refs additional incentives, be it a place to stay, free lunch and dinners and bourbon, or even a cut of the NAH fees. Lets make this fucking happen.
The Eastside NAH will be leading by example. Credit is due to our Torontonian homie who has graciously volunteered to come to Boston as the "head ref". We welcome and encourage more folks to jump on the bandwagon, and we'll make it worth your while, (Nick Kruse).
I would help setup/join a polo reffing union.
The referee will also need a creepy pedo-stache.
i'm opting out of the bench minor in l.a. because i'd like to ref it instead. i'm all for what you're saying, addy.
I'm curious how much extra people would be willing to pay to have dedicated refs. For a 32 team tourney, 5$ per person is almost $500 to pay for refs. Most tournaments nowadays usually have two courts, two refs. So, an extra 5$ on the registration fee can pay 240$ per ref. Not a bad pay for a weekend of being a ref at a polo tourney. And I'm sure if you toss in a place to stay and some free beer, refs might be easier to come by than you think. Volunteers are all good and well, but not always easy to come by. And for most tournaments, I assume covering the full cost of travel for refs may not be possible just yet. But imagine what kind of persuasion some pocket cash, a bed to borrow and booze to drink, could have on a person.
Couldn't agree more. Teams registering for a serious or mostly-serious tourney should have no problem paying for proper referees. Even $100 for a weekend is reasonable, and could be increased for higher level tournaments. That comes out to a measly $3.13 per ref, per team for a 32 team tourney. With two refs that's $6.25 per team, or $2.08 per person. These aren't extravagant sums.
Alternatively, I know that some people think the ref's need to be dedicated, non-players, but I don't think that's always necessary. It takes a bit of organizing to pull that off, but I think it can be done. The issue with this model is that I've never seen these volunteer ref's get anything for their time. They need to have some incentive to do their job. Maybe they could earn back a portion or all of their registration fee?
All of this is well and good and I think it would be easy enough to implement, but compensation doesn't address what I see as the major problems: knowledge/experience, and compliance with the rules.
First, a lot of people honestly don't know all the rules that are already on the books (myself included). For instance, did you know that when you mallet someone's wheel and they lose possession of the ball you're supposed to restart play in the same way as if someone scored a goal? I don't think I've EVER seen this happen. Most people just go tap in, or if you're a dick you don't even do that (reference is to NAH rule 12.4.5). Honestly, I think that people will eventually pick up most of the rules if they go to a properly refereed tournament; most players haven't been to one of those though. And lastly, there's compliance with the rules: some players just don't want to play by the rules. They don't agree with them or they don't give a rat's ass. In general, I think this problem should go away once enough people know the rules because refs will have the support of the crowd, and we all know how persuasive a crowd of drunken polo players can be.
One of the issues is that our season happens in a very hot time of year. Expecting someone to be on point for 9+ hours in the sun seems extreme.
The available base of referees is pretty small, considering that everyone has a real life and many times playing polo competitively (what we really desire) is already at odds with the rest of the things we do in life. One can only fit in so much travel...
But lets assume the base is big enough and lets admit that a single ref for a court that sees 9 hours of play a day is just not enough man-power. Adding more refs (4 a tournament?) makes the cost prohibitively high. Plane tickets, housing... even if they're volunteer, and even if they're willing to pay for some stuff by themselves, this becomes highly unsustainable in my eyes.
We're trying to create something that other sports have by paying for it from inside the community, whereas other sports generate REVENUE. If you ask me, this will be a revenue problem.
I experienced relatively highly successful reffing by people participating in the tournament (read: players) at both North Americans and Worlds. When I think back to the change that has gone on in this area of the game since 2 years ago at NAs in Madison, I am wholly impressed with the effort of the people in the game to get better at doing it.
Would it be cool to have a dedicated ref at any tournament at which it is possible? Fuck yes. But I don't think this is the area of the game that needs unique focus at this point. Reffing is something that is always getting better, and until you address the revenue problem, I don't think you'll ever successfully address the reffing "problem".
It's progressing at a satisfactory rate. I am happier and happier with how it goes at every new major I go to. I think encouraging each other to volunteer and teaching a wider base of people how to do it correctly can really take us a long way. At the same time, what JayJay wrote above is a great idea and something I'd be fully on board with.
I really haven't noticed a change in reffing. North Americans this year was among the worse that I have seen. I did shit that probably should have been called and shit was done to me and my team. I DO think that it gets better on Sunday and even better as it gets later in the double elimination.
Nick, Post some pics of your bike.
Nick, your arguments are quite valid.
I'm suggesting and encouraging people to experiment this, because the closed region qualifiers present the perfect opportunity. In these cases we should have to worry about temperature. I don't think anyone is concerned about 'revenue' for these. And if every qualifier does it can only add to the ref "base".
Yes it is probably unreasonable to pay for plane tickets and travel expenses, but Jayjay is right, and a little bit of consideration goes a long way. And who doesn't want an excuse to go chill with some homies!
A major part of the problem is the attitude of the top players and the crowd. One of the hard things about being a ref is that you're given the task of telling excellent polo players that they are wrong (whether they're on the court or in the crowd). Many refs, which are generally players not in the current game, look up to better players due to their polo skill and thus have trouble calling them on rule breakages. This problem is compounded by the fact that some players would rather do whatever it takes to win (read: cheat) to rather than following the rules. It's a vicious problem that has swallowed many small sports and more recently, a much bigger one that you might be aware of. Given the current state of reffing, you'd do better in a tournament trying to be sneaky about breaking the rules or just trying to force the ref to make calls (which refs hate doing). So you start breaking the rules and doing better in tournaments. Then refs start to respect you more because of your tournament finishes. Then you get away with more shit. Rinse and repeat.
What needs to happen is a change in values. Let me ask you all a simple question: would you rather win than follow the rules? If yes, then you're part of the problem with reffing. We need to realize that unless players stop taking advantage of poor reffing that the progress of reffing will be severely hampered. Getting pissed at a ref for making a call that was the right call solely because it gave the other team a (justified) advantage will discourage the ref from making that right call in the future. And it's because the refs look up to you, guys. It's because the refs are often your friends. I'm not going to name names, but the reffing at Bench Minor 2 in Chicago is a perfect example of this. Most people treated the refs like shit and even spectators were heckling the refs. Even if the reffing wasn't great, it wasn't solely caused by the skills of the ref.
Bad reffing is also caused by the attitudes of the players and the crowd. Even professional refs in sports have lost control of games due to the crowd or the players antagonizing them. And they ref games for a living! But a bike polo ref isn't a paid person who does this for a living yet. The bike polo ref doesn't have a stone-cold and objective demeanor nor is the ref unaffected by the crowd or players second-guessing a call. Be real, that's how reffing is now. The crowd needs to be behind the ref; the crowd needs to want to see legal play rather than a sloppy game with numerous stoppages or crashes. And until players start wanting to follow the rules more than win, this will continue to be a problem because the ref will be just a 4th opponent who isn't quite on the court.
x2, Pete. Refs can't be effective if there is no respect for the position or the rules. I say that there should be designated team captains for the sole purpose of talking (rationally) to the officials, and that there should be a penalty for unsportsmanlike conduct that includes verbally attacking officials. Give the officials some proper authority, and you will see their calls respected.
BM2 is the perfect example of this. Whether you were talking about me specifically or not, I can say that I was caught so off guard by the level of aggression from the players that I lost all confidence in what I was doing and was reluctant to get involved. Not to mention that some of the shit people pulled there was excessive to the point of absurdity, though I've seen a great deal of progress since in self-policing. The fact remains that there is a weird heirarchy of respect that dominates the player/ref dynamic, and there can't be effective officiating until we find a way to promote or decide as a whole that we're going to play by the rules and respect the officials' calls.
At Worlds you were allowed to give penalties for unsportsmanlike conduct, which included arguing with the ref. I almost had to for one team who bitched every single game I reffed of theirs. Most whinny team I've ever seen play bike polo.
Pete, you are right. However this isn't a discussion of ethics or values, or bad reffing, but a discussion of how to get our refs to this level you are saying doesn't exist? (I'm just not really sure what your point was)
The mission is refs that don't give a fuck if they call a penalty against the home team during he finals. Because with experience these refs will know what the fuck they are doing, and won't feel pressured by a crowd of drunk fucks.
Like I said we need referees who have a thorough knowledge of our game play and who also maintain a level of respect and confidence.
With the proper incentives (and I suppose training too) it CAN happen.
Okay, let me break it down. You're saying that getting refs educated about the rules and giving them plenty of game reffing experience will produce good reffing. While this is true, there's another way to produce good reffing: not being dicks to the refs.
You're doing well to recognize that bad reffing can be caused by inexperience and ignorance of the rules. I'm trying to remind everyone that bad reffing can also be caused by the crowd or players harassing the refs. You say that refs need to maintain a level of respect and confidence. Back-talking and consistent rule breaking from the players undermine the confidence of a ref.
Also, this absolutely is a discussion of values and ethics. You're saying that you value good reffing and you're asking what should be done to make good reffing a reality. Any time you're talking about a value, the reasons behind it, and the methods of maximizing it, you're talking about normative ethics.
Travel reimbursement seems prohibitively expensive at this point.
With closed qualifiers though, there are two possible opportunities though.
1. In region injured players
2. In region players planning on playing in another region
3. In region "retired" veterans (these people may actually be the most objective!)
Just a thought, LOCATE these people quickly, train them thoroughly, and make it worth their while.
I recently wrote about how we should expect more from our regional and club reps. One of the small but obvious expectations that I wrote about was that we should except these members to be well versed in the rules. They should be the members of each region that people can go to with any rule related questions. Since they are so well versed in the rules, I feel we should expect them to step up to help ref these important tournaments. It should state, in whatever official rep document that may or may not exist, that as a regional/club rep you should expect to attend your regional qualifier and ref it, at least for some short amount of time. If we expect more from our representatives then we will get the right ones running for spots; we will get ones that care about the advancement of the sport and ones who aren't afraid to make the calls.
I'm not sure where, but a while ago I suggested electing 2 to 4 regional refs each year that would agree to not play in the regional qualifier. There would have to be certain incentives for it and some of them are being discussed above. Other incentives could include waiving their registration fee for for the next year's qualifier. From these regional refs, there could be an election for NA refs who wouldn't be playing in NAs anyway since they failed to qualify (by not playing). Regional refs who can't swing it monetarily (even with compensation) could bow out of the NA ref election.
Right here, not a single fuck is given. I also really like reading. Seeing this happen, i downloaded the whole rule set and now am studying with a seriousness i lacked last time i read them.
I'm interested to try this out slowly and steadily. We can try out certain aspects of the dedicated ref this season and go from there. I'm all for incentives, but some smaller tournaments just are not worth it. In this case, i do like the idea of housing/"supplying" the refs.
I've discussed this issue with other players in the area, and this officiating aspect includes alot of really enthusiastic poloists who wouldn't normally get to play in the big leagues. I am a fair-to-decent player, but if i am to be honest: i will never get up to worlds skill level. But i would reeeeally love to be involved in some high profile games, and i can be an extra set of eyes-with-a-purpose. More polo for all, more friends and fans sounds like a clear advantage for all.
As to incentives or suggestions to get dedicated refs: the next bikeapolooza in KW, i volunteer my comfy couch, an amazing custom made meal and a bottle of scotch (or a case of beer, your choice) to whoever refs the whole weekend. I'll probably share all my spliffs with them, too.
maybe ref's should be babies, ya know. refs get shit on by the players. period. look at every sport and people always shit on refs.
look at how hard baseball umpires are. they don't take shit. maybe people reffing should not be afraid to call people out and toss a person out of a game. in some high profile matches, i'm sure that would teach everyone a lesson.
The thing is in major league sports umpires are quite well compensated for the abuse they take.
I honestly think Pete's points are a huge part of the problem. People fear the social repercussions of making the hard calls against people who are often times their friends. I agree that if we can change the culture around crowd and player reactions to calls I think we will see a lot more stuff actually called.
That said, in my experiences reffing you will often get slack for calls in the heat of the moment. But at the end of the game most people will apologize and admit the got caught up with adrenaline.
Another point that I think is worth noting is that of players pushing what they feel they can get away with. At NA's this year as the rounds went on I found my games getting EASIER to reff, despite games increasing in intensity. I think this was due to establishing that I WAS going to make calls. Players quickly realized this and adjusted how they were playing accordingly.
Let's get a rule put into the qualifiers that ripping up a ref after a call amplifies the penalty from a turn-over to a 30s.
That, coupled with a reffing base that becomes more competent, and we'll be whistle-trained little bitches in no time. We don't need *just* more stuff called, we need the right stuff called. You are a really, really good ref Lewis! We need a lot of you. Tell us how!
Shit. Thanks dude.
I think I have a few things going. I played baseball for over 10 years and for the last few of those I umpired little league baseball.
I also played hockey for 5 years and was trained as a linesman.
The baseball obviously doesn't apply directly as far as skills but I think I gained a confidence in having to back my judgement and make a call. You HAVE to make a call on every pitch, and every play.
Hockey as a sport is obviously a little more applicable to polo. When I was training as a linesman one of the main things I remember taking away from the training course was this dumb exercise just blowing the fucking whistle and blowing it with confidence.
Honestly, if you have a solid understanding of the rules of bike polo, when you watch a game if you see a foul you probably think something along the lines of "that's bullshit".
Realistically, reffing is just backing your judgement that said play is bullshit.
If I can give one piece of advice for reffing it's this: use the delayed penalties. Make your first reacting to raise your hand. Often after a foul the ball comes loose. So you don't want to blow the whistle right away. You want to see who comes up with possession. But even if the offending team has possession, raising your hand achieves a second objective. And that is buying you an extra split second to collect your thoughts. To confirm what your eyes saw and process it. Now you are sure, you're confident, you know what your call is and what you are going to say and you blow the whistle.
If I can give one piece of advice for reffing it's this: use the delayed penalties. Make your first reacting to raise your hand. Often after a foul the ball comes loose. So you don't want to blow the whistle right away. You want to see who comes up with possession. But even if the offending team has possession, raising your hand achieves a second objective. And that is buying you an extra split second to collect your thoughts. To confirm what your eyes saw and process it. Now you are sure, you're confident, you know what your call is and what you are going to say and you blow the whistle.
This.
And that is buying you an extra split second to collect your thoughts.
x2
Another way to "collect your thoughts" is to co-ref with someone else.
Sounds weird, because our refs are (mostly) stationary, bring someone else with you up on a reffing platform/chair and just TALK THROUGH THE WHOLE GAME about every decision you make, including non-calls.
Saying things out loud helps you build confidence in your immediate reaction to an event, and put names on things, which is still sorely lacking in our sport.
You can even acknowledge your missed calls to that person, don't worry they won't tell. It's better to call a penalty 5 seconds too late than not at all, and having a second person validate a reaction like "hmm i think that's a penalty" can really help.
[quote=Lewis one of the main things I remember taking away from the training course was this dumb exercise just blowing the fucking whistle and blowing it with confidence.
[/quote]
YES!!!!! Please.
Also, please, never anyone ever again blow your whistle "just get someones attention" That is an incorrect use of your primary tool. Whistles start and stop games. No more no less.
Also I really like the idea of penalty amplification for back chat. I think you would see dissent on calls greatly reduce and respect for referees and their calls go up.
Lomax's idea of having a designated captain who is responsible for communicating with the ref sounds solid to me. It's how it works in hockey. If the team has an issue with a call the captain is allowed to approach the ref to discuss it.
These two things would be the easiest ways to improve reffing this year. Do it, NAH!
i've watched three NHL games this year on TV, and there have been three such penalties (double minors, one for the original penalty, one for disrespecting the ref). i think the NHL decided to ramp this up this year. and so should NAH.
we're having a travel companion coming to toronto for the classic that may be into reffing. i'll talk to them and make sure.
And that is buying you an extra split second to collect your thoughts.
x2
Another way to "collect your thoughts" is to co-ref with someone else.
Sounds weird, because our refs are (mostly) stationary, bring someone else with you up on a reffing platform/chair and just TALK THROUGH THE WHOLE GAME about every decision you make, including non-calls.
Saying things out loud helps you build confidence in your immediate reaction to an event, and put names on things, which is still sorely lacking in our sport.
You can even acknowledge your missed calls to that person, don't worry they won't tell. It's better to call a penalty 5 seconds too late than not at all, and having a second person validate a reaction like "hmm i think that's a penalty" can really help.
Its very much in the nature of polo to borrow from other sports. And in this sense I think soccer can be looked at as well.
Firstly, Kev touched on the element of an additional "head ref" at center. However on top of this I think that goal judges (like linesmen in soccer) could be given authority in officiating which is second to the head ref. In this sense, if the goal judge sees something the ref hasn't they raise their arm to make a call. In soccer this is rare, however it happens. The ref blows the whistle and the linesmen makes the call, or if the ref has seen it and disagrees he waves down the call and play carries on. It offers the linesmen (or goal judge) the ability to draw attention to something the ref may or may not have seen. It also offers the ability to provide the ref with that extra bit of confidence for a call that he may be iffy on from his vantage point at half (ie. skirmishes in corners)
Secondly, to build on what Lewis said regarding delayed calls. Soccer is huge for "playing advantage". Often when a fowl is committed in soccer, the ref raises his arm to identify that he has seen the fowl, however waves play on or even states "advantage" if the team receiving the fowl has possession or an opportunity. Even with advantage granted often the call will be made delayed if the advantage play amounts to nothing. This is a bit of a grey area even in soccer, because there is a point where the team receiving the fowl has used their advantage and lost the opportunity. But there is still a point where advantage can be granted and the delayed call still made. Polo, like soccer, is a game that you want to keep flowing. Its actually quite unlike hockey in the way of officiating. Unless polo uses an equivalent to the faceoff and becomes a game with alot of stoppage, I would say refs would need to be familiar with the use delayed calls and playing advantage.
Secondly, to build on what Lewis said regarding delayed calls. Soccer is huge for "playing advantage". Often when a fowl is committed in soccer, the ref raises his arm to identify that he has seen the fowl, however waves play on or even states "advantage" if the team receiving the fowl has possession or an opportunity. Even with advantage granted often the call will be made delayed if the advantage play amounts to nothing. This is a bit of a grey area even in soccer, because there is a point where the team receiving the fowl has used their advantage and lost the opportunity. But there is still a point where advantage can be granted and the delayed call still made. Polo, like soccer, is a game that you want to keep flowing. Its actually quite unlike hockey in the way of officiating. Unless polo uses an equivalent to the faceoff and becomes a game with alot of stoppage, I would say refs would need to be familiar with the use delayed calls and playing advantage.
The brits have used this "advantage" system a lot, although i think they may have dropped it.
I don't think we're talking about a lot more stoppage than we currently have though, maybe a couple calls per came will become average? No more than the ball going out of bounds.
If an play results in someone dabbing who otherwise wouldn't, which is most penalties, it's hard for me to imagine that a whistle wouldn't be blown, even with this kind of system.
the ref raises his arm to identify that he has seen the fowl,
i see the duck. or perhaps a turducken joke?
Noob question: did you guys start reffing at pick up or just decide to do it at a tournament? Being a ref interests me in the practical sense of hosting tournaments or being able to help close to home.
You all are making bringing up very legitimate discussion points. All of which should be kept in mind during the upcoming season.
however, I want to keep this thread on topic- how to get people out as referees.
Here are the main thoughts so far:
- Respect and positive attitude towards the rules AND refs by the players AND crowd
- DOnt ducking disrespect the ref! - a vey legitimate suggestion to add to our ruleset.
- a little in$entive goes a long way, $5 a person adds up and could help encourage more folks to ref
- we need to get folks experience reffing. So they are comfortable blowing the whistle and keeping their cool when the action gets HOT
- using delayed penalties
Can help build confidence as a ref - a bit of help can make a big difference - be it an extra set of eyes from goal judges or a homie sitting next to you talking you through it
Keep it coming ya'll!
And dograptor, Boston is not reffing pickup games, I doubt anyone is and hopefully never will.(but I wouldn't put it past Seattle)
And dograptor, Boston is not reffing pickup games, I doubt anyone is and hopefully never will.(but I wouldn't put it past Seattle)
Yeah, keep it on topic. But if you're going go off-topic, you're advised to use the opportunity to diss your former polo club.
I guess I should have explained myself better: using a few nights of pickup to actually call games correctly, instead of being thrown to the wolves in a tournament setting. Basically I want to help ref the Masters this June for experience, so I can either full time ref or help again at the Trillfest (which should be a more 'serious' tournament).
No one here wants anything to do with refs at pick up. Calling people on their bullshit usually works. League games on the otherhand have demonstrated a need for a referee repeatedly.
If your club has a high octane polo night (or time slot) or is thinking about organizing one, you should really consider having folks practice reffing these games. This will be a good way to make sure games don't take too long if you're playing a A-player-only game during regular pick-up time. The refs will also be able to learn the necessary skills outside of the pressure of a tournament game. And all the players will be members of your club, so they really shouldn't get angry at you. It's just pick-up deluxe, no reason to get heated!
"Hey sorry guys, youre not good enough to play tonight. But you can stick around to ref us"
I hope that is never how the conversation actually happens and it's really not what I was trying to say.
Agreed, As I mentioned above our league games need referees and one idea was asking a captain from a team that wasn't playing to be present to Ref. While it would be nice for people to automatically respect the ref based solely off of their position many people don't respect referees because they don't feel they are experienced enough to make the call. ("That hit was clean, (so and so) just doen't know how to play" is a statement I've heard. Not many people are going to say that to someone like Ben.) The captains of the league represent known skilled and experienced players and not an arbitrary sideline person asked to hold a whistle and probably not blow it.
Spreading this idea to polo as a whole means that respected players, like Ben, Ref more until people are used to being called out and as new referees are introduced they resepect the position and not the person. Now to get people to believe that if they want ref's in top level games they need to be willing to Ref first is a different aspect of the position that I have no other ideas for other than heavy handedness and near constant whistle blowing until people understand what the rules feel like and when they're really breaking them. Not just their presumptions.
I read a lot of great ideas and would love to see that in tournaments,but after playing in worlds I would bring another aspect to that...if american teams play europe or any combinations I saw a lot of favoritism from refs.to the team from the same country...its really bad in such a big events...so I would pay extra to have designed ref that would make a game fair and skill would decide to win and not luck :-)
if american teams play europe or any combinations I saw a lot of favoritism from refs.
Really?
Im not saying in every game,dont take me wrong,coz in lest few games of those tournaments before the final is different,coz the pressure of the crowd and its more fair,Im talking about games in the first days of qualification is more of that shit happened...and not every ref Im just saying its there sometimes and I just wanna bring that to attention so with designed refs that would help...so don't take me wrong on that...
Crusher's Urban Velo article brings up an important point. "The NAH is recognized as a governing body of the sport."
Which of you "reps" up for election gives a shit about organizing a movement for the betterment of referee's in Bike polo???????
Does anyone else want to help take this off the forum and into real life? Ft. Lauderdale #croclife the spotlights on you this year are you ready to have the tightest reffing the game has ever seen?
I'm not sure what is the first step we need to take, can someone help me out here?
Should we create a "ref training" video? Should we raise money? Should we get a nah "committee" started?
since when has NAH cared about the correct order for organization?
Should we create a "ref training" video? Should we raise money? Should we get a nah "committee" started?
Two of these things are already happening, I can assure you. Money however, is not one of them yet.
For those interested in being a legitimate referee, here is a link to the rules .PDF.
http://tinyurl.com/nah-rules-feb7-2012
So far I think this thread has contributed a few big ideas(see lewis' comments) for those who want to referee and we should definitely be thinking in terms of good habits that a good referee has.
some good ideas in this thread. I think the best we can hope for is travel costs as compensation. I'd ref an (outside region) qualifier if my travel costs were covered.
some good ideas in this thread. I think the best we can hope for is travel costs as compensation. I'd ref an (outside region) qualifier if my travel costs were covered.
I'd volunteer to ref eastsides (since for some dumb reason only part of ny is in that region.)
in the case of the 2013 ERQ if the entry fees were doubled, we would have money to at least get the refs a motel room and throw them some traveling cash. even then i doubt we'd have enough to really cover all their costs, but at least it would be a substantial payment for their efforts.
i think if we want serious dedicated refs at tournaments, as players we are going to have to pay for it. Either through NAH membership or higher entry fees.
i think if we want serious dedicated refs at tournaments, as players we are going to have to pay for it. Either through NAH membership or higher entry fees.
This is the conversation that we need to have if we're really serious about going 'next level.'
The successful alternative amateur sports organization 501c3s--like roller derby or ultimate--have significant annual membership fees as well as event fees that are higher than what polo players are paying now.
Tournament-level players should be thinking seriously about this reality and about how much they are really willing to pay to get items like high-quality refereeing. (or official A/B category events, or an open points-series schedule, etc.)
We will not get significantly past where we are now at $20 - $30 per person per event including the $3.33/person NAH fee.
Still, why can't we see what money has been spent on so far? Can we see what one season of current fees generated?
This has been the only frustrating thing about NAH in my mind. Lets have the "pay more" discussion, sure. But the lack of transparency thus far is far from convincing.
Did it all go to Vince for Podium? Balls? Can we release expenses? Isn't it a non profit requirement or something anyway?? Who did the taxes for it??
(I would pay more anyway, I just think it would help to see what kinds of things money has been spent on thus far.)
Still, why can't we see what money has been spent on so far? Can we see what one season of current fees generated?
This has been the only frustrating thing about NAH in my mind. Lets have the "pay more" discussion, sure. But the lack of transparency thus far is far from convincing.
Did it all go to Vince for Podium? Balls? Can we release expenses? Isn't it a non profit requirement or something anyway?? Who did the taxes for it??
(I would pay more anyway, I just think it would help to see what kinds of things money has been spent on thus far.)
Ya. Wheres the money Montana??
Good discussion to have... but not in this thread.
Portland Bench League started last weekend. I'll be starting the discussion about reffing on Saturday.
Love to see (and participate in!) the progress.
Like all the talk about confident refs. I'm fairly new to the sport, been reviewing the rules more since I broke my hand.. Bored no bike time. Think the regional refs is a great idea, even if they cannot participate in every tournament, starts a group/comity for every region. Thus able to train and coach other refs, plus be able to have a pool of thoughts on issues or ideas that may arise at different times.
Don't have a ton of experience being a ref for sports but lots as a life guard. Confident with a whistle and making judgement calls even when people are pissed about it. I assume its similar work, your job is really to keep every one safe ultimately.
So many good ideas and attitudes in this thread. I feel that some kind of ref training video or test is a great idea. Maybe a related thread where we talk about tips for dealing with troublesome players and discretionary calls. I'd love to discuss at length some holes and grey areas in the rules and see how fellow refs deal with these issues.
Also, will there be a skating class at NAH Ref School? I haven't been on my blades in years.
So many good ideas and attitudes in this thread. I felt that some kind of ref training video or test is a great idea. Maybe a related thread where we talk about tips for dealing with troublesome players or how to ref your friends. I'd love to discuss at length some holes or grey areas in the rules and see how fellow refs deal with those issues.
Also, will there be a skating class at NAH Ref School? I haven't been on my blades in years.
yo... no one said anything about skates or being on court. you can fuck right off with that shit.
whoa! LETS GET ANGRY AT PEOPLE FOR HAVING IDEAS! YAH! dude, chill out with the harsh words.
I'd hoped most people would pick up on my sarcasm, but alas, I need more practice with the internet.
I'm not saying I'm lacing up, but weren't the roller refs well received?
http://www.topshelfpolo.com/2012/05/roller-refs-haters-gonna-hate.html
I'd hoped most people would pick up on my sarcasm, but alas, I need more practice with the internet.
I'm not saying I'm lacing up, but weren't the roller refs well received?
http://www.topshelfpolo.com/2012/05/roller-refs-haters-gonna-hate.html
no i did. but my sarcasm wasn't received as well.
Roller refs were great at Ladies Army IV.
On-court refs were great at NACCC 2008 and NAHBPC 2010, 2011, and 2012.
EDIT: OK not really "great", but part of the very slow but steady march towards decent reffing
I agree Martin. There was a reffing conference call before NA's last year, but its just not the same as being together in person.
Addison, I'm glad you're bringing this up. Refing has been a major discussion point for a while now. We've discussion financial compensation, travel expenses and training for refs. We're in the process of building a certification program. Also, to quote http://www.nahardcourt.com/?p=139 :
- "Regional Representative, Tournaments – Coordinate/schedule your region’s qualifier, help develop non-NAH tourneys, oversee referee development in coordination with Ref Committee, and develop our NAH series schedule in concert with the Tournaments Committee.
Thanks Jeremy! On the topic of Referee Training:
In 2013 the NAH is introducing a new Referee Committee which will oversee the education and certification of Referees. There will be a range of tools developed over the next few months and will require feedback from the community with the ultimate goal of becoming standardized in North America for 2014. There are two approaches being pursued:
- Online Certification and Education: We are working on educational materials and a certification test. There will be a separate thread on this as soon as it's ready. Trust me when I say this will take time to refine, but it will be worth it.
- Referee Clinics: This will be the tangible version of the online materials. Education, reffing experience, and certification, all in person. Look for a separate thread on this as well for more details. A clinic is being organized in the Midwest during June or July, prior to the NA's.
The committee will be contacting regional tournament reps to discuss these issues and work towards requiring a certain number of certified referees at their events in 2014. The committee will also be working closely with Minneapolis and Ft. Lauderdale for establishing a refined refereeing structure for 2013.
this got some for real shit. i withdraw any suggestion or positive feedback i gave and would like it be replaced with discouraging words. anything that mentions conferences or clinics are too much on the side of people who take kickball league serious. ignore my input, like i'm sure most people already do.
Well, I don't have a bicycle anymore seeing as I folded mine in half against a concrete wall last night. Maybe I could just retire early and become a full time travelling ref.
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