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NA Hardcourt 2011 Tour Update Thread #2

Permits for Midwesterns were approved today! Complete information being released next week.

For now what you need to know: May 20-22, Bloomington IND, registration 60 days prior the event (the week before Little Rock), $60/team.

WOOOOHOOOOOOO Leaving now Should be able to make it cross country by May19th. Be prepared to be 5.0 'd

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"So this is how it ends"MACHINE

You rule Machine.

x2 if you agree

justin rules as well (we broke a ball hockey ball tonight, please send us 10 more and we will paypal you for 10 more)

pop a rubbah band on it

http://www.mercurymessenger.org/poloballs.html go there and I'll have em in the mail next day.

Quote:

Qualifier Registration:
• 75% of the available spots at each qualifier are reserved for teams with at least two players from the host region. The remaining spots (25%) are reserved for teams composed of 2 or more players from outside the region of the hosted tournament.

NAHBPC Qualification and Registration:
• Players placing in the top 8 teams at each qualifier can register immediately for NAHBPC. Players are not required to stay on the team they qualified with. A team registering for NAHBPC must have at least two players that placed in the top 8 at one NAH qualifier.

Adding the 8 top teams from each of the 7 regional qualifier tournaments is 56 teams worth of players who are able, and likely to register for NAHBPC.

The 2011 NAHBPC has a cap of 64 teams. Leaving a max of 8 teams able to enter through a wild card tournament.

Here is where this could all go wrong. And forgive me if I'm restating something that was said in the first thread. 56 teams is 168 players. Those 168 players are not required to stay on the team they qualified with. In a worst case scenario those qualified players could find one unqualified player for every two of themselves and make 84 full teams that would be Ok to play in NAHBPC because they have at least two players that placed in the top 8 at one NAH qualifier.

84 teams. That's worst case.

A more likely scenario is that from within the 56 pre-qualified teams there are 16 players that want to, amongst themselves, form 8 new teams. So 16 of the 56 pre-qualified teams need to find a fill in player. And the 8 new teams also find 8 individuals who want to go to NA's. That's 64 pre-qualified teams and no room for the wild card tourny to let and more teams in.

Now. I know there are going to be teams that go to qualifying tournaments out of their region, and maybe some of those qualify more that once before NA's. So then maybe all of this does not matter because the real world total of pre-qualified teams will never really become 56 teams because of overlap.

I could not find an answer to this.
Concerning a team of 3, who pre-qualified in a previous tournament, then place top 8 in a second pre-qualifying tournament. Does that qualifying spot then be given to the 9th place team who has not yet qualified?

I would guess that it is not.

This system is pretty messed up.

Why have regionals with a set number of spots for NA's if the teams don't have to be from the region to win a spot?

Doug D
Brooklyn, New York
hardcourtbikepolo+gmail+com
hardcourtbikepolo.com

i brought this up in the cascadia thread. there's going to be a combination of players double or triple qualifying, and also newly formed teams of 2 qualified+1 unqualified, how many we can only really wait and see. i think it's ridiculous to offer personal qualification for a TEAM sport, but that's how they decided to do it. from what i understand those 9th place teams never get the spot, it gets added to the wildcard tournament. the good news is i don't think the wildcard tournament is going to fill up with teams that have no place trying..

I don't bring this up to change things immediately but to watch close and see what needs changing for next year.

Doug D
Brooklyn, New York
hardcourtbikepolo+gmail+com
hardcourtbikepolo.com

Doug D wrote:

Now. I know there are going to be teams that go to qualifying tournaments out of their region, and maybe some of those qualify more that once before NA's. So then maybe all of this does not matter because the real world total of pre-qualified teams will never really become 56 teams because of overlap..

Exactly. Some teams will qualify more than once. There were about nine or ten non-regional players who qualified at the SW tourney who may well qualify again at another tournament. There are players from the SW who qualified at the SW tourney who may well qualify at another tournament.

The system is a bit messy but it's very unlikely that we'll have too many teams qualify for NAHBPC.

Some of the factors that went into this:

1) if a player can't make a regional tournament due to an injury, emergency, prior commitment, etc, that player's team still has a chance to qualify, and that player still has a chance to end up playing at NAHBPC. this is particularly important in bike polo where the absence of one player is a bigger deal than in sports like soccer with a roster of 15 or 16, or hockey, with 25.

2) it allows players to mix up who they play with throughout the year, potentially build a better team. better teams = better polo.

Doug D wrote:

Why have regionals with a set number of spots for NA's if the teams don't have to be from the region to win a spot?

This has been stated elsewhere, usually in the midst of boring threads, so it's worth repeating.

The idea was to balance two somewhat competing goals:

1) Make sure the championship tournament features the best teams
2) Make sure the championship tournament has regional representation.

These goals are competing because some regions are stronger than others. In some sports this is solved by giving more spots to stronger regions. But since this is a new system, we don't have anything to base this off of. NAH decided to solve this by keeping the borders between regions a bit open. Also, this is how our sport has always been (very very few tournaments have had regional limits) and it would have been a pretty extreme shift to move all the big tournaments to a regional system.

Doug D wrote:

Concerning a team of 3, who pre-qualified in a previous tournament, then place top 8 in a second pre-qualifying tournament. Does that qualifying spot then be given to the 9th place team who has not yet qualified?

No. this risks producing too many qualified teams for NAHBPC. Also:

1) There is not ONE 9th placed team. Double elimination produces 1 first place team, 1 second place team, 1 third place team, 1 fourth place team, 2 fifth place teams, 2 seventh place teams, 4 ninth placed teams, and 4 thirteenth placed teams.

2) there would be no way to determine whether that extra spot goes to a "ninth place" team at the first tourney, or the second.

===

All of this is subject to change for 2012, and the NAH tournament committee hopes people will contribute ideas to make it better. Hopefully people recognize that we were trying to achieve a lot of different goals in the system we came up with. Maybe we'll simplify it next year, but making it simpler will come at a cost.

Back to the last thing you quote me on,

In the first qualifier, there had not yet been any teams who were qualified. And that tournament produced 8 teams who left with a spot in NA's.

I'm kind of grinding my teeth thinking that maybe by time the final qualifier happens there could possibly not be a single team to gain a spot into NA's due to the top 8 have already qualified. It is possible.

More likely is only one or two out of 32 to 64 teams gains a qualification.

And of course there is a likeliness of some teams of 2 pre-qualified/1 not yet teaming up to get a buddy into NA's.

All the loop holes in this system to "keep it balanced" is tripping me out.

By the way, I have not had a polo bike since early November. My Brooklyn is set up 51x18 with 32 spoke wheels. I fucking love it. But I do have one of the new MKE mallet heads, the shit is on point. ps: Ben where you at? talk to me

Doug D
Brooklyn, New York
hardcourtbikepolo+gmail+com
hardcourtbikepolo.com

Metal pedals

Doug D
Brooklyn, New York
hardcourtbikepolo+gmail+com
hardcourtbikepolo.com

put some plastic ones on

Doug D wrote:

I'm kind of grinding my teeth thinking that maybe by time the final qualifier happens there could possibly not be a single team to gain a spot into NA's due to the top 8 have already qualified. It is possible.

More likely is only one or two out of 32 to 64 teams gains a qualification.

First of all, it's 12 teams that qualify per tourney. The top 8 teams don't have to play in Calgary until Thursday. The next four have to show up a day early to play for one of the wildcard spots.

I don't think this is all that likely that only one or two regional teams will qualify. In the SW qualifier, nine teams from the SW qualified. In the SC, i'm going to guess non-regional teams might take about 5 of 12 qualifiying spots, leaving about 7 for SC teams. I bet you that in the Midwest, Cascadia, and Eastside, a majority of the spots will be taken by teams from those regions. Not sure about the Northside or SE.

Doug D wrote:

And of course there is a likeliness of some teams of 2 pre-qualified/1 not yet teaming up to get a buddy into NA's.

As it stands, most people who travel to tournaments play on more than one team throughout the season. And most people play with their buddies.

if you really want something to grind your teeth on, check out http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UEFA_coefficient

i like this system, we should use it

Doug D
Brooklyn, New York
hardcourtbikepolo+gmail+com
hardcourtbikepolo.com

The 2011 Tour is designed to bridge the gap between sending the top players in North America to the NA's and sending the top players from each region to the NA's as well as allow players to change teams freely, and minimize excessive burden on tour organizers. So, if you think our baby is ugly, you're entitled to your opinion but you can't say she is incapable of the doing the things above.

If you take the polo time machine back to the meeting held the day after the 2010 NA's, it was decided by regional reps that there would be four 48+ team open tournaments to seed the 2011 NA's. This format would have sent the top players in North America to the NA's. Because some regions posess more skilled players, every region would not be equally present at the NA's.

Travelling forward to fall 2010, deadlines expired for the four tour qualifier bids. Essentially we were asking 4 clubs to step up and each hold a very large tournament. There simply weren't enough qualifying bids due to the size requirements.
Instead of scrapping the whole tour idea, the tournament committee came up with the idea of 7 smaller open tournaments and each region agreed to hold one of those tournaments. As dialog continued in the tour committee, some reps were concerned that the competitive nature of the open format would limit the participation of all regions. There was a lot of dialog about who goes to the NA's. Do we send the best players in North America or the best players from each region? There were supporters of each. Instead of cutting the baby in half, the decision was made to give regions an advantage in registration.

Our next question was how do we decide places. In a bracketed tournament there are ties for 5th, 7th, 9th, and 13th. By rigidly sending the top 8 teams to the NA's and teams 9-12 to the wildcard, we've made this task very simple for each tour organizer. The top 8 is composed of places 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 4th, 5th, 5th ,7th, and 7th. Spots 9-12 are comprised by 9th place. If we decided to allow the top 13 teams in because one team already qualified, we would have also placed the burden on the tournament organizer to hold up to 8 additional games to determine the placement of the tied spots. We would also have had to answer additional questions such as: What happens if not all players on that team haven't qualified more than once? and What happens if a tournament organizer is unable to play out the additional games?

Now to your questions:

How many teams will register for the NAs? No one knows the exact number. Most of us who dreamed up this idea believe it to be 56 or less and that is by design. We're trying to respect Calgary's contraints. As Jinxy quickly pointed out, some will not be able to make it into Canada. Also you too have shown there are scenarios work against each other to keep the number from reaching its maximum. Looking at the top 8 from Tour Qualifier #1, I can say with confidence that three players will be unable to make the journey. I think the registration and results of the next couple tournaments will make things clearer.

Doug D][quote wrote:

Concerning a team of 3, who pre-qualified in a previous tournament, then place top 8 in a second pre-qualifying tournament. Does that qualifying spot then be given to the 9th place team who has not yet qualified?

No, because it would require the tournament organizer to hold 6 more games to determine places 9th and 13th. Also remember that a double qualification opens an additional spot for wildcard teams to reach the championship, it isn't a complete loss.

Doug D][quote wrote:

Why have regionals with a set number of spots for NA's if the teams don't have to be from the region to win a spot?

The qualifiers aren't regionals (in the sense of a tournament that determines the best players from a region). We were careful not to use the word regional in explaining the tour details for that very reason. I'm not sure everyone else was so careful.

good explanation, thanks

Mike_T_PHX wrote:

The qualifiers aren't regionals (in the sense of a tournament that determines the best players from a region).

Maybe the wording isn't there but the way they are weighted to have a fixed majority of participants from that region makes it a regional.

Again, thoughts for the future, Traveling teams are good for polo, i love to travel, but the qualifying spots should only be given to teams from within the region.
Say a team not from that region gets 3rd in a regional qualifier, great here are your prizes, and good games but the NA qualifying spot goes to a team from within the region.

I think our choice is,
Anybody can enter any qualifier, and anybody in top X places should win NA registration spots. No boarders, let anything fly.

Or

If a fixed 75% from a region can enter that regions qualifier, a minimum of 75% of players from that region should win NA qualifiers.

It's like we limit the number of out-of-region teams allowed to compete in regional qualifiers but not the number of qualifying spots they can take. With just a quick look, I may be wrong, in the SW Qualifier 25% of the teams were from out-of-region but those teams took 38% of the NA qualified spots.

So only 62% of the NA qualifying spots went to teams from that region.

It just seems off to me.

Doug D
Brooklyn, New York
hardcourtbikepolo+gmail+com
hardcourtbikepolo.com

Doug D wrote:

the qualifying spots should only be given to teams from within the region.

doug i agree with everything you say, but some teams aren't even going to have the chance to register in their own region's qualifier either because they can't make the dates, or they fill up too fast. to me that's the bigger issue: even attending a qualifier is becoming luck of the draw/fastest mouse clicks.

If you can only qualify in your own region then you need to give some regions more spots, like a euro model.

but....

It's fine how it is.

I know the system aint perfect, but I just wanted to say I like where it is, for now at least. Traveling to tournaments is one of the best things about polo. I'd hate to lose that option to closed tournaments, especially big ones. I'd also like to say, from the perspective of a 'developing' region, that having very good teams from far away come to your tournament is also a good thing. 3 years ago Seattle, East Vancouver, Capriotti and Roberts came to our lil Polo Picnic and housed us. Hard. But they were nice about it, and without that visit, we might not have ever learned what GOOD polo was. These days, we can hold our own and we owe some of that to them. Just a thought.

Doug wrote:
"A more likely scenario is that from within the 56 pre-qualified teams there are 16 players that want to, amongst themselves, form 8 new teams. So 16 of the 56 pre-qualified teams need to find a fill in player. And the 8 new teams also find 8 individuals who want to go to NA's. That's 64 pre-qualified teams and no room for the wild card tourny to let and more teams in."

I actually think the opposite is more likely. If the 56 teams that can qualify stay together this leaves only 8 spots open for the wildcard tourney. A number of top teams from the Cascadia region already qualified in the SW DPI. And this is going to continue to happen since the better players and teams are usually the ones who travel to other tournaments. Now the big question for us in Cascadia is, are those teams going to play together in Portland in order to practice for the season? Or, are they going to split up to try and help their friends qualify as well?
A lot will depend on what these players decide, but if these top teams do decide to play together from one tournament to the next, it is likely that 3 or 4, or perhaps more of the qualification spots that are available in Portland (for example) will go to teams that have already qualified. And looking at the Portland qualifier, since this is going to be such a hot tournament it is likely that some teams that come from out of region are going to be serious competitors for top 8 as well. If top teams from cities like ottawa come and qualify, when they go home to their regional - the northside - they will qualify there again as well leaving further qualifier spots unclaimed. As the season progresses this is going to occur in many regions and I think it is possible, and even likely, that the wildcard tourney might see much more than 8 spots up for grabs, maybe even twice that number if teams that travel and qualify multiple times stick together. This is all speculation of course, but rather than Doug's worst case scenario, this is the scenario I think to be more likely.

but we shall see...

Getting back to business, There are recent tournament developments to the 2011 Tour.

1. I'm reposting tour details below.

2. Registration for the Southeast Regional has been moved out one week from it's original date of tomorrow. Registration for the SE Qualifer starts as 11pm on March 4th. The link to registration is below.

Structure - 7 Qualifying Tournaments:
• Each NAH region (7 in total) is responsible for holding a two day tournament accommodating 32 or more teams. Swiss rounds on day one and double elimination on day two. This tournament must be held before July 12th. The current NAH Rules are to be used.

Calendar:
• Southwest – 32 teams – Phoenix, AZ, January 29-30 - Registration 1/12 at noon MST
• South Central – 36 teams – Little Rock, AR, March 26-27 - Registration 1/28 at noon CST
• Midwest – 48 teams – Bloomington, IN, May 21-22
• Cascadia - ?? teams - Portland, OR, May 21-22
• Southeast – 32 teams – Savannah, GA, May 28-29 - Registration March 4th at 11PM EST
• Northside – 48 teams – TBD, around July 1
• Eastside – 48 teams - June 11-12

Qualifier Registration:
• 75% of the available spots at each qualifier are reserved for teams with at least two players from the host region. The remaining spots (25%) are reserved for teams composed of 2 or more players from outside the region of the hosted tournament.
• Registration for each qualifier should not occur sooner than 2 weeks after the tournament has been announced on the LOBP. Registration should begin at least 30 days before the date of the qualifier.
• Ten days before the tournament begins, the 75%/25% regional restriction will be removed; opening any remaining spots to all teams, regardless of their regional makeup.
• Registration will be managed by NAH via the web and will be detailed in the near future. Registration info for each qualifier such as teams, participants and registration times will be made viewable to all.

NAHBPC Qualification and Registration:
• Players placing in the top 8 teams at each qualifier can register immediately for NAHBPC. Players are not required to stay on the team they qualified with. A team registering for NAHBPC must have at least two players that placed in the top 8 at one NAH qualifier.
• Players placing in the top 9-12 of teams at each qualifier can register immediately for the NAHBPC Wildcard tourney. Players can mix teams around, but at least two players registering on a team need to have been on a team placing in the top 12 at one qualifier.
• Official qualifer results will be published by NAH.
• All qualified registration must occur before July 15th at 12 noon EDT.
• Any unclaimed wildcard spots will be made available online for all to register at 12 noon EDT on July 18th. No qualification is required for this very limited number of spots.
• The number of wildcard teams advancing to the championship tournament will be determined shortly after the close of qualified registration (July 15th at 12 noon EDT).

Wildcard Tourney:
• One day Swiss Rounds tourney with 32 teams.
• The number of spots advancing is equal to 64 minus the number of qualified teams that have registered for the NAHBPC. As an example, the top 8 wildcard spots will advance if 56 teams register for the NAHBPC.

Any unclaimed wildcard spots will be made available online for all to register at 12 noon EDT on July 18th. No qualification is required for this very limited number of spots.

Would it be possible to have this be a different time than the middle of a Monday morning for most of NA?

Plausible... I need to determine if NAH or Calgary is going to run this registration. I'm thinking we might want a separate thread for the wildcard tourney/registration details and questions. I'll post something back here when I find out.

I wasn't very clear there. The details above are an exact copy of the original post with the exception of the Tour Calendar.

deja vu

After some discussion of the current tour structure NAH has decided to amend the 2011 Tour Plan in regards to in region vs out of region restrictions. The exact wording may change but the basic outline is to remove restrictions two weeks after registration.

The original read:
• Ten days before the tournament begins, the 75%/25% regional restriction will be removed; opening any remaining spots to all teams, regardless of their regional makeup.

It will be amended to:
• 14 days after tournament registration opens, the 75%/25% regional restriction will be removed; opening any remaining spots to all teams, regardless of their regional makeup.

smart decision

Thanks Sven. For the Cascadia and Midwest qualifiers, the 14 day period ends soon (Sunday and Tuesday respectively).

If you're an out of region team interested in attending, register soon!

The wild card tourney may be bigger then 32 teams, Also 2 weeks after the last regional tournament we may open registration for the wild card tournament. This will allow non qualified teams to register and get there stuff together ASAP. We will be doing the registration on our website www.2011nahbpc.org.

I need a sugar momma so I can work less and play polo more!!

any word on the northsides?..

Yah is there a date decided yet?

I need a sugar momma so I can work less and play polo more!!