The tournament committee asked for help and suggestions to solve the "registration race" and nothing really plausible was forth coming. We are aware of the limitation, but have no adequate solution.
NAHBPA QUALIFYING TOUR 2012
to the North American Hardcourt Bike Polo Association poloverse:
On behalf of the tournament committee and the Board of NAH, thank you for your patience and participation in determining the course of action for the 2012 Qualifying Tour. Last year was a giant step in terms of unifying and organizing a very large group of individuals over a rather large distance, and for the most part, as first attempts or version one goes, it was successful in some/most areas and not as successful in others. Many different opinions and many different concerns came out of that first year and we have heard, listened to, considered, thought of, thought about, debated, deliberated over, talked and argued about, and pragmatically viewed all of them to the best of our ability. We, as a committee, moved forward on discussions through many meetings held in the last month to come up with a narrowed list of options, a list that was sent out to your regional representatives for review and response. We then reviewed all responses and came to a new list of conclusions that was proposed to the Board of NAH last night in a conference call. The board voted and thus was born the new format for the 2012 Qualifying Tour outlined below.
Please keep in mind that this is only the course of action for 2012 and that we will be implementing new strategy early in the season to be able to review and process the results of the tour and how it plays out in the year, with more efficiency, giving us the ability to make recommendations for 2013 and beyond within a more appropriate timeline. We have made SMALL changes to the structure of the Qualifying Tour due to the proximity of the new year being 2 weeks from now, and the whole time keeping in mind that we want to encourage travel as well as non-tour tournaments in the calendar year, and we want to help organizers of all events as much as possible.
Goal of the Tour: to advocate the best competitive bike polo being played by the best teams at the NAHBPC, with regional representation considered and recognized. We understand that the number of players, clubs, and interest in competitive HBP has increased and will continue to do so. We also recognize that the capacity at which clubs can host tournaments was stated to increase as per the census at the end of 2011, but realistically it may only increase a small amount.
Regions: remain the same as 2011
Player rule: always maintains a 2/3 rule when considering in-region/out-of-region, and qualified/non-qualified, as in 2011
Tournament Size: minimum of 32 teams, maximum of 48
Tournament Structure: There must be at least 1 day of swiss rounds, Final day must be, and is limited to, a 24 team-double elimination only
The Tour Calendar: ALL qualifying tournaments must be completed by the weekend of JUNE 2-3, 2012 regardless of region geography*. To clarify, this limitation gives ample time for organizers to consider their own city and bidding on their own regional qualifier without pigeon-holing potential host cities to specific dates, but also allows for more open summer months in the overall schedule and aids the organizers for the NAHBPC by giving them a clearer idea of numbers and figures for the tournament
*Petition Clause: allow a region to petition for an extension or change providing they can PROVE that circumstances beyond their clubs control have prevented them from completing the qualifying tournament on the date originally scheduled [things such as a natural disaster, a municipal scheduling error for facilities, etc].
Confirmed dates for regional qualifiers should be no less then 2 months prior to the tournament date. Bids will be received as early as today for all qualifiers, and an ending date for bids will be determined immediately [sorry this is in our next meeting], this directly effects this next ruling:
Registration:
Registration must occur starting no less then 2 months prior to the scheduled tournament date.**
Teams must register with full members, incomplete teams will be considered unregistered.
In-region teams may register for a total of 7 days, with no limit except that of the tournament capacity. This means that registration is effectively CLOSED for one week to in-region teams only. After that one week, time set to the second, out-of-region teams may register for the remaining spots up to 25% of the entirety of the tournament capacity [this is like last year]. With one month remaining until the tournament date, the registration is open to all participants regardless of regional status to fulfill the registration capacity, defer to 'waiting list' first if there is one
**Early Qualifying Tournament exception: As the committee is late in preparing for 2012 it would be unfair to limit qualifying tournaments from being declared for the first 2 months of the year, especially considering that the Arizona club and DPI have already been organizing and declaring qualifying status. We are amending the 2 month min notification stipulation for this known tournament to be applied as follows: Registration for the DPI Regional Qualifying Tournament [SW] will apply the 'closed' rule for 48 hours, at which point in time it would revert to the 75%/25% ratio, and then at the 3 week to tournament date it would open to all participants wanting to attend after the waiting list is considered.
Registration Fee: remains the same as 2011 with $10 per team built in to the registration fee to be contributed back to the NAHBPA treasury for usage to be determined by the NAH Board of Directors, the total fee per team per Regional Qualifier would be determined by the host city organizers.
Qualification Non-Displacement/Displacement Rule:
Top 8 teams will be given "Qualified" status from each Regional Qualifying Tournament, as a standard, with new 4-team displacement rule in effect.
Teams, keeping in mind the 2/3 rule, may qualify one time, and play in as many qualifying tournaments as they are able to, but they will NOT displace teams up to and including the top 12 only. Tournament organizers MUST run out the 4-game playoff for placements 9-12 as soon as they are able to during the final day of the tournament, this will also contribute to a more statistically accurate review of the 2012 season. Teams below the top 12 will not be considered eligible for qualification regardless of top 8 placing teams qualification standing. For example: if 5 of the top 8 are previously qualified teams then the tournament will only yield 7 new qualified teams for the NAHBPC registration list, if 9 of the top 12 teams are previously qualified then the tournament will only yield 3 new qualified teams for the NAHBPC registration list, etc. This rule is proactive and not retroactive.
We did our absolute best to accommodate the majority if not all of you in these mild changes to the system from 2011. We are reviewing how to better improve for 2013 already with all this in mind as well.
Please contact myself or your regional/club reps with questions, post them here, etc.
I look forward to all the feedback on this, but please note that this is how we are proceeding and in order to participate as a Regional Qualifying Tournament you will have to abide by these system adjustments. [barring all noted exception fields].
Thank you again for being patient.
Enjoy the holidays and hopefully you can get some great polo in no matter where you live!!!
Very well written Chandel.
The one thing that caught my eye is this
"Tournament organizers MUST run out the 4-game playoff for placements 9-12 as soon as they are able to during the final day of the tournament, this will also contribute to a more statistically accurate review of the 2012 season. "
which seems pretty cool actually! Good job and thanks for all of the volunteer work put into the meetings! And Big thanks to Kiersten of Seattle, who had to deal with classes, work, and volunteering her time to the board meetings (and subsequently, has lost some of her polo nights) and will be stepping down from her position in 2012.
Can it be 2012 yet?
3. 2. 1.
It sounds like you can't wait for me to step down! (so much for inner city love)
Dear god I thought you quit these forums so you would stop making comments that just shouldn't be said.
Thanks Chandel and NAH for all the time spent sorting this out, it seems like an excellent transitional plan moving onward to next year. The race to register will definitely still be frustrating, but at least we have the opportunity to travel out of region still. Registering for DPI 4 is going to be wild for sure.
This "non-displacement" clause doesnt seem like much of an improvement over last year. Qualified teams can still displace the qualifying spaces.
If you look at the numbers that occurred last year this would be pretty difficult. Only a few people qualified multiple times and for those teams to displace anyone they would need to be present in large numbers at a second, or third qualifier.
I guess my point is that top 8 qualifying spaces from each tourney should go to previously unqualified teams that place in those tourneys regardless of the standing of previously qualified teams. IE you can win the tournament as a previously qualified team but you still allow for a full qualifying field.
"Goal of the Tour: to advocate the best competitive bike polo being played by the best teams at the NAHBPC, with regional representation considered and recognized."
we recognize the dilemma with regions having out-of-region teams present and placing/displacing their chances, but keeping in mind that we are advocating the best competitive bike polo be present at NAHBPC, we applied the displacement rule only to 12 placings because that is exactly half of the competition from the double elimination on the final day. we also limited it to that number because adding more would mean more stress on the organizer to run a second 4-game playoff, forcing them to run two in the allotted times of their tournaments.
Out of region is not the issue, its teams that are already qualified. In no other sport/game/competion is a qualified team/player/whatever allowed to participate in a qualification once already qualified.
I get what you're saying, but if we only allowed non qualified teams to participate in a qualifier, the last few tourneys would be much less competitive than earlier tourneys, what with a dwindling pool of non qualified players who could attend. As far as other sports not allowing 'qualified' teams in, that is inaccurate. This year, the Green Bay Packers have already clinched their division and a playoff berth with 2 games left within their division to play, for example. Last year they had to win several games against in-division rivals that had already clinched in order to make the playoffs. But their hard work paid off and they were still able to win it all.
what with a dwindling pool of non qualified players who could attend
you're kidding right? you dont think 7 tournaments can be filled by june with 190+/- clubs in n. america?
and your foot ball reference doesnt work either, the NFL doesnt use tournament seeding, they use seasonal statistics.
Im sure the tourneys would fill up, but with what caliber of players? My football analogy was in regard to the fact that just cuz a team qualified for the playoffs (in our case, qualified for the right to play in the NA championship) the regular season (in our case, regional qualifiers) doesnt stop for them, nor should it. In every sport, teams that have clinched still play out their season, even if it may cause other teams to miss the playoffs.
GO PACK GO!
Im sure the tourneys would fill up, but with what caliber of players? My football analogy was in regard to the fact that just cuz a team qualified for the playoffs (in our case, qualified for the right to play in the NA championship) the regular season (in our case, regional qualifiers) doesnt stop for them, nor should it. In every sport, teams that have clinched still play out their season, even if it may cause other teams to miss the playoffs.
We don't have a set season or set teams (for the most part). In the NFL they use win/loss records to show who goes to the playoffs not an elimination style tournament. In the NFL there is no tournament that says certain teams are eligible and which are knocked out. Your analogy is highly flawed and the two types of championships cant be compared in terms of how qualification happens. If you want to look at how we compare to another sports championship look at NCAA basketball. Multiple regions using elimination tournaments to qualify for a championship.
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I've got a few ideas for a timed registration addition for Podium. It's too soon to use it for this weekend, but it'll include:
- Submitting all info (team name, player names, emails) ahead of time
- Presenting a countdown timer that is sync'd to the server
- Enabling the register button the second registration is open
This will take out the variable of internet speed, since it's the sync'd timestamp that matters, not the exact time the data gets to the server, and it will prevent early registration dq's. On top of that, organizers won't have to mess with gathering all the info and getting it entered into Podium, it'll just take a click or two.
please get a hold of me directly to discuss what is happening with technology and tournaments this year.
chandelbodner@gmail.com
Seems to me like maybe the last weekend in June should be the cut off date rather than the first weekend in June. That leaves all of July for NA planning, then you hold NAs in early August and worlds in early september?
Even if people aren't playing in every qualifier, I think people really enjoy following along throughout the summer and having them spaced out a bit. I know there's a goal to condense them but I remember personally checking out each tournament and talking about them as they were arriving, etc... it was fun to always have another one to pay attention to. Just something to think about I suppose.
amirite?
we considered all options
and the most favorable was to limit to the end of June.
I'm sorry but the original post reads:
ALL qualifying tournaments must be completed by the weekend of JUNE 2-3, 2012.
Do you really mean June 2nd-3rd as the last possible time for a regional qualifier. If I remember correctly from last year, ESPI, Northsides, Cascadia and SE were all after this time and it seemed to work out okay... but I guess it's whatever. Just seems like this will put excess stress on cities wanting to host but needing leniency on timing. Already, so few cities are stepping up to the plate.
i apologize. i meant june 2-3.
given that everyone knows this now, they have at least 5 months to plan. should you have a strong club and a group of people planning you can accomplish this with ease. ESPI and other regions were later in the year because they had an open-ended timeline, with only one month until NA's to be completed by. this year we want to ensure two months. the committee is also here to help you organize. also, this will not be the case for 2013. we are working towards being more ahead of the ball for 2013 so that clubs would know with much more time to be able to plan for dates.
at this point i would like to state that we in no way force cities to host tournaments with all the stress of sponsorships etc. We are advocating a bare-bones tournament in terms of providing only the necessities of the tournament to run well for the players. We do not and regional qualifiers are not required to have prizes and more incentive then just providing a good facility with necessities covered. if you would like to provide more that is up to you and your group to make it happen.
few cities are stepping up possibly because they were waiting to see what the decisions were for the 2012 season. give it a bit more time. i think you'll find, and we hope, that a few to a bunch of different tournaments pop up and are created to fill up june, july, and more! we want to encourage non-tour tournament strength as well.
Thanks to everyone who gives a feck about polo. I particularly like the first line" to the NAHBPA poloverse." Special thanks to the tournie committee and The Board of the NAH for getting it together, keeping it together and moving us forward together.
First of thanks for bringing up the packers. Second having all the tourneys over before June I think is great.
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Why were the regions not realigned, we have plenty of data now to show which regions could be consolidated and which could be expanded. At least the number of qualifying slots in each region should have been adjusted.
both topics you refer to were heavily discussed and adjusting the bids per region was proposed as an option for review by all the reps. it was virtually unanimously agreed upon that for 2012 we are not ready to adjust or weigh the bids from each region for qualification to NA's.
we will be considering both for the future, and it will be analyzed in the immediate future to be able to advise of and make adjustments for 2013.
Chandel,
You and NAH are doing an excellent job of setting this up and communicating about it. I particularly appreciate how you are sticking to your guns and not making changes to the plan. I know the NAH has spent countless hours developing the guidelines for the Qualifying tour, and it makes sense to keep what you have decided on in place for 2012, and implimenting changes starting for the 2013 season. That way everyone knows what to expect.
We're a diverse group made up of a high percentage of individualists, so coming to an agreement on anything is a huge challenge. Now that the process has been set down, sticking to it is the best thing to do.
Stay strong,
Wade
To the seven of you guys that sorted threw the competing ideas and arrived at a plan very similar to last year, good job. This is going to work for most people and be just fine. At this late date, it wasn't the time to come out with a confusing new and untested system. I'm glad that cooler heads prevailed.
So nothing really changes. I'm ok with that.
Looking forward it seems like if any big changes happen (regions, qualifying structure) it'll happen in 2013. Geneva is talking about having worlds by mid-august, so is that when we'll start assessing how 2012 went? and if so, what's the goal date to have the next year's structure established?
we will be looking at the 2013 season starting after the first and second qualifiers, in depth.
we are already talking about it now though. we have a goal to establish this months in advance....
so who's doing cascadia this year? would be good to know for those of us who are gonna have to travel 3000km
ON THIS NOTE!
we will have a bidding thread started soon.
but organizers, can you please not only send bids or communication to your regional reps, but also forward them to me and the committee?
thank you!
yet another disappointment from this NAH committee. 2/3 player rules... an awkwardly worded 'displacement clause' which doesn't even solve the problem it sets out to... do you not realise that you are simply papering over the gaping holes in a rotting, poorly planned failure of a structure?
join the New Format revolution. 2012 is Year Zero.
the mayans were actually foretelling the switch to new format with their calendar, not the end of time.
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join the New Format revolution. 2012 is Year Zero.
The revolution doesn't mean we have to sit in a park like a bunch of hobos, does it?
I think the system is pretty solid; from what I can tell you have negotiated a healthy compromise. Well done, thanks for the time and work. New to the forum, so I'm gonna toss a couple ideas and questions into the mix: Why are there limited team entries into the regional qualifiers? I understand that the best teams don't necessarily want to waste half a day playing jank-ass teams for sporting reasons and because of injuries(although, newbs tend not to open hand shove you when your sprinting with one hand on the bars) but shouldn't there at least at the bottom tier be fairly open submission to the overall tournament? Wouldn't this also promote the sport more to new people, and solve the in/out of region quandary? It was always something that pissed me off about competitive cycling, that any old person couldn't just field a team of friends and jump into a tour(unless of course you are rich and can just pay off the board and buy everybody $20,000 bikes)......I guess what I'm trying to say is that if you really want to say you are the best in the world, open up the competition to the world or don't call it worlds.
This probably needs a separate thread or it might have one already: Has anybody contacted espn?
because space and time are finite. also, NAHBPC isn't worlds; it's North Americans.
Also, Newbs should probably play for a while 1st and not just get crushed in a tourney...
Here (SFC) we have Wednesday nites just for new players... and if a veteran player shows up,
he/she typically plays goalie more or with the non-dominant hand to give the newbies more ball-time.
And, btw, I do think newbies cause a lot of wrecks/injuries when thrown into a competitive game too early...
still waiting on Northside and Midwest to sort their shit out. Northside didn't announce until early May last year.
can someone explain how the Midwest qualifier doesn't have to conform to the same structure as the other qualifiers? what is happening here?
You should wait until the registration process is announced.
so you're saying that what has been announced by the organizers of the Midwest qualifier may not in fact be what ends up happening?
"In-region teams may register for a total of 7 days, with no limit except that of the tournament capacity. This means that registration is effectively CLOSED for one week to in-region teams only. After that one week, time set to the second, out-of-region teams may register for the remaining spots up to 25% of the entirety of the tournament capacity [this is like last year]. With one month remaining until the tournament date, the registration is open to all participants regardless of regional status to fulfill the registration capacity, defer to 'waiting list' first if there is one" --- the midwest tournament is not moving away from this system. We are just working on a system so that the teams that are in region can facilitate a equitable system. There is no where in the rules that says that regions can't decide how in region teams register. We are by no means excluding out of region teams, but we are assuming that all 32 spots will be filled up in the first week and are trying to address that. I would also like to point out that it was not Madison's decision to try to deal with the registration issue but rather a number of club reps from around the midwest that decided we should try to figure out a way to develop an in system distribution of spaces.
Nothing announced so far is inconsistent with the above, except that we're getting to the point where 2 months advanced registration isn't possible. There is no mandate for an internet race-to-registration via Hardcourtbikepolo.org set forth above. That’s just an easy, uniform system being offered by Zach and NAH as a resource, like NAH and Vince RE: Podium. You can still do brackets by hand if you want, NAH isn’t going to force you to use a dead-easy, super-fast, well-designed online system if you don’t want to.
There is the 2/3 rule, and a 7-day in-region registration reservation rule. I'm sure midwest will be able to craft a system to keep to these rules.
But really, we can be virtually 100% sure that no spots would remain following the 7-day in-region period in this case, so the ability of 2/3 out-of-region teams to register is not a main concern. Figuring something out to meet the goal of "advocat[ing] the best competitive bike polo being played by the best teams at the NAHBPC, with regional representation considered and recognized," through a 32-team Midwest Qualifier is the main concern.
I’m sure Midwest would love to host 64 teams and take all comers if that were possible. But they have to do the best they can with a 32-team max this year.
So sounds like pretty much the same, but now you can't qualify twice and the who-can-click-the-fastest race is reserved for out of region teams because of the limited number of slots for em. I feel like the non-displacement thing is awesome, but registration needs to be figured out. I feel bad for anyone who can't go to a regional because they have slow internet. 12 slots for out of region teams isn't that many in some of the more central regions. Polo's getting bigger, I can imagine small clubs on the fringe of regions trying to go to quals as out-of-region teams getting left out by the current format. But time will tell, we'll see shortly how reg for DPI goes. I know Portland is wanting to bring 2 or 3 teams. That's 1/4th of the out of region slots!
the resident misunderstood yet well meaning theory junkie
http://thesaurus.com/ ... http://www.philosophypages.com/dy/