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Bench Minor IV Player Stats

Rookie Chris and I (Olsen) spent 20 hours over two days watching all the round robin games. We were compiling all the stats you see here. I helped Chris by calling actions that he recorded. We kept track of goals, shot attempts, assists, turnovers (giving the ball away), steals (forcing the ball off a player), saves/blocks, and dabs. Chris made the spreadsheet here after compiling all the data and calculated shooting percentage.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AkXlbyfypo3pdG4yVUhNN0lwUEd...

Use the tabs at the bottom to click between "SEEDING GAME SUMMARIES" and "PLAYER STAT TOTALS" to view the most stats to ever.

GJ guys! It must have been tough, but this should be standard for all tournaments.

We gonna start making some trading cards soon? That'd be tiiiiiight!

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If you aren't sinning, Jesus died for nothing.

I got 99 bitches, one ain't a problem.

well done, guys. the most stats taken at any bike polo event, as far as i know.

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carve. smash. eat shit.

These are cool, thanks. Really fun to look at after bench style tournaments.

For some constructive criticism, in my opinion plus/minus and time on the court are the two stats that I think are most important. Coincidentally, these are the two stats that podium records automatically.

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fixcraft.net

I, too, am very curious about the reasoning behind the decision to not use podium. Not just for stats, but also for broadcasting. BM4 organizers?

It probably would have been easier to use than a clipboard and pen.

The reason podium wasn't used is the same reason the live video stream went down a lot during the day - we had issues with our WiFi hot spot shutting down all throughout the tournament and we did not want to let broadcasting hold up the tournament. Simply put, our internet was not at all reliable so we could not use podium.

And with the amount of line shifts/player substitutions that occur during a bench - it would have added a whole other level of complexity to keep track of time on the court + stats with 2 people and would not have been manageable at all. I chose what I chose to record to keep things as simple as possible and yet doable for the 2 people recording everything down. Realistically - to be 100% accurate and with more complex stats, you would need 4 people recording (at minimum) - 2 people dedicated to each team playing.

Time on the court to me is only a supplemental stat that would be used in conjunction with things like goals/SA/blocks...to further show the efficiency of a player. On its own, it doesn't tell you anything. Someone could stay on the court the whole game and produce nothing so its not a valid number on its own.

What Olsen (Suicide King) and I agree are really important stats to keep track of that were missing (...this was the first time we ever attempted this!) are "chances created" which would be assists not finished by the shooter and something like "dribble" which would highlight ball handling skills of players - say a nutmeg move or dribbling through traffic and retaining the ball. Also, keeping track of penalties - there was only one 30 second but there were a bunch of delayed penalties scored

I play for hugs

Polovanni wrote:

Time on the court to me is only a supplemental stat that would be used in conjunction with things like goals/SA/blocks...to further show the efficiency of a player. On its own, it doesn't tell you anything. Someone could stay on the court the whole game and produce nothing so its not a valid number on its own.

Yeah, I meant in conjunction with the plus/minus. I also think plus/minus negates the need to count things like blocks or shots. To me, the thing that really matters is if a player is generating more goals for their team rather than against while they are on the court. If you normalize it to the time spent on the court, you really get a ton of insight from very little actual recording.

I understand why you didn't use podium. You guys did a super great job with everything. It's fine that you guys did things the way you wanted to. It's your tournament. I just wanted to discuss the importance of those two stats. I really like seeing them!

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fixcraft.net

i guess im not understanding what plus/minus means...

but Erica was on your team - she doubled the amount of blocks/saves by anyone else on your team and had 5 times more saves/blocks than you. She had several amazing saves and groups of 2 or 3 saves in a row - could anyone else have done the same thing? Who knows. But without her doing what she did, your team (The Legion's) W/L record and goal differential could have been very very different - so for that - credit is for sure needed and in my mind and the stat is very validated.

I play for hugs

Plus/minus (often seen as +/-) is pretty straightforward. If you're on a line that scores 10 goals and gives up 7, your +/- is +3, as is the +/- for your teammates. The players on the opposing line would all be at -3. It's simply the difference between goals scored and goals against.

Yes, it can be kinda misleading if you two guys are producing up and one kinda lingers without much action. But that lingerer could also be blocking tons of shots or presenting opportunities for the two players scoring the goals (this would likely be reflected in assists).

ahhh ok yes - got it now

this would be a great stat and could rule out shots/blocks - but in something like a bench its would be very very difficult since there are different lineups all the time. some teams ran with line changes (3 player subs) while some teams ran with player changes. it was a lot easier to keep track of individual stats for players (saves/blocks) compared to sets of 3 players stats (+/-)

I play for hugs

Actual, it's extremely easy to do this with Podium. Just click the square to put someone on or off the court.

Here, try it yourself: http://www.hardcourtpodium.com/tourney/group

It requires a little manpower to watch, but at the Battle for the Midwest it happened. It seemed to happen with great ease. I'm pretty sure the assistant ref kept time and managed Podium, which just requires the assistant ref to click when somebody gets on the court and if they score.

Check it out! http://www.followpodium.com/midwestbattle2

...and simply tracked. Keep a tally column next to each player's name. Add a tick mark when a goal is scored while they're on court and take one away when the team is scored upon while they are on the court.

I say simple but finding a volunteer for bookwork during a tourney is far from. Keeping accurate stats at any level is never ever "automatic."

In a 3v3 tourney the +/- is called the goal differential. Teams are constant so all players share the same result.

Wifi problems alone is a good reason not to use Podium, but let me address some other points of yours:

1. Switching players on and off the court is extremely easy in Podium Bench Format, all it takes is two clicks. I used the software myself for a math project and it was very, very straightforward. I think two people could easily handle Podium as well as a clipboard for other stats. I'm not sure what other stat features Vince is thinking about working into Podium Bench Format, but I don't imagine it would be terribly difficult given Vince's track record when it comes to creating what polo wants. So, my point is that I don't think Podium would make it more difficult to record stats after using it extensively.

2. Plus/minus for your team while your on the court is generally considered to be one of the most important statistics. Here's an example. Imagine two players: player X who scores 5 throughout the game but her team is scored on 8 times while she's out there and player Y who scores 2 goals throughout the game but her team is scored on only once while she's on the court. Who would you say did better? I think it's clear to say that player Y is the better player here. But without time on the court or plus/minus, you can't make these comparisons at all. Nobody is claiming that time on the court would be interesting to look at alone. It's pretty obvious that the best players (offensive and defense) would get a disproportionate amount of playing time and several players would be mostly riding the aluminum. Podium allows you to record this precious stat and I feel like if we want to do the best job of comparing players (which is the point of stats to begin with), then we need to know their plus/minus rating.

That said, thanks a ton for putting in the time that you did and taking all the stats that you could. Maybe one day Vince will make a Podium program that you can download and run offline....

x2 on the downloadable version of Podium being a big factor for us

Joker doesn't like podium...

Thanks Brian. As a spectator I love podium for 3v3, even if I have experienced some difficulties with it in the past. I'm not gonna go into that here, cuz I have a ton of respect for Vince and all he has done for the Poloverse. Clearly, if you have several courts and 3 dozen teams Podium or Seattle Swiss is the way to go. I'm only gonna touch on this briefly now, as our club put in a ton of effort and time to make sure this tourney could go off smoothly while still providing all the same data (and a whole lot more) that Podium provides the offsite spectators. We just simply felt google would be better for us, without sacrificing the tourney itself. And I feel both goals were accomplished. I suppose with all the advents in technology, there may be some players such as yourself who feel entitled to things like that, but as unpaid volunteers who are working extremely hard to facilitate a major event like this for their first time, for a lot of people they have never even met, I think they deserve a little slack. And I hope all their hard work and sacrifices do not get overshadowed by such helpful insights being presented here.

Separately, I think scoring percentage is a great stat.

Not to nitpick, but your stat trackers definitely did not provide all the same data that Podium Bench Format would provide. Plus/minus, time on the court, who's on the court and when, who scored when, etc. are all features that Podium has that were not recorded this weekend.

Joker, nothing on this has anything to do with putting down the work your volunteers did. Obviously, they were fantastic. Instead i think we arguing that their jobs could have been easier and more effective if you guys had decided to use the purpose built platform for this type of event.

As stated, we went with what we felt most comfortable using. In this case it was google. Can't put the genie back in the bottle here. I guess we weren't prepared for all the coulda shouldas that followed, though I had a feeling they would come. Nice as it would be to hear a lil praise for all we did, I shouldn't be surprised to read all this.

Edit: I sorta feel like our club just made a very large and delicious batch of Mashed Potatoes by hand. We woulda used our kitchen aid mixer but the electrical cord on it was a lil sketchy so we decided to steam the potatoes, mash em by hand and then add a lil garlic to enhance them at the end. Then when we served the potatoes, first thing we hear is 'you know you shoulda used a kitchen aid mixer, woulda been way easier for you and tastier for us'. I guess that's sorta how I feel, even if it's not directly how it is being messaged here.

i was one of the two people that kept the stats during this tournament and i 100% preferred and still would prefer to use pen and paper over podium in Bench Minor 4s specific case. So, no point in arguing for me. i tried podium bench out before the BM4 ever started and i found that for what i wanted to do, with the limited human and technology resources we had available for this specific tournament - the way BM4 went down was just great as is

my main goal for keeping stats (which i took upon myself to organize and execute) was calculating scoring % as ive never seen that done before and its a very important stat and i would argue...the most important for judging an offensive players skill. in basketball you have 5 stats that people care about - shooting %, rebounds, blocks, steals, and assists - in polo that would be scoring %, blocks/saves, steals, and assists - and those are 4 stats that podium has no way of keeping track of.

i challenge you to keep stats for 10 hours straight, for 2 days while recording everything olsen and i did AND using podium to keep track of player substitution times, goal score times, and +/-. oh, and with 2 people.

some people here are missing the point - this thread is not about the how. how we got them was up to us and its already done. its about the what - what we got were polo stats on a very high end tournament with some of the most amazing players...from around the world! something nobody else has done. will the how and what of stat taking be improved in the future - absolutely! but until someone decides to volunteer some 20hrs of their time, check out the hard work olsen and i put into the weekend!

with that being said - koyo and andrew W along with the rupert, peirre, henry lineup were my favorite players to watch this weekend! great freaking tournament guys!

I play for hugs

We don't want to go into something that wasn't really our decision. Chris made the choice to collect stats completely independent of everyone else.

Regardless the stats we recorded provide an astonishing amount of insight.

We can deduce things like Shitty and mini mike being under valued in the draft. Shitty in particular provided first round value pretty late in the draft. (Players are in order by the round their captain selected them)

Or put a number on a players outstanding performance. (D. Riggs was shooting over 50% at one point that record setting game)

Or look even deeper and see that if you subtract Emmet's first game where he shot 0 for 15 (we can chalk it up to nerves) he has a much more respectable 19% shooting accuracy.

- Sincerely
Olsen Aviles

What are you talking about .
Shitty borrowed my wheel , took it back to SF leaving me stranded for 2 days in LA, then didnt return it til 1am Wednesday morning....all I deduce from those stats is that he's called Shitty for a good reason and that reason is 100% validated .............well played Shitty ))))

"So this is how it ends"MACHINE

This is nicely done!

Dabmaster Dillman? Was he trying too hard? Everyone working on taking him out? Perhaps he needs some 20% practice.

I think we all know that Dillman doesn't know how to stay on his bike...

you can't talk about Champ like that unless you can say it to his face......................oh shit Rhetorical post

"So this is how it ends"MACHINE

HOLY SHIT KOYO

also big ups LA for setting the bar exceptionally high on the stats keeping front

This. Who cares how they did it! Those boys sat there for 10 hours a day getting down with pen and paper so you all could get some hard data on your favourite game. So shaddap ya haters!

henry wrote:

Who cares how they did it!

People who want to improve how it is done in the future

henry wrote:

So shaddap ya haters!

People who want to improve how it is done in the future are not haters.

Most detailed stats kept so far, ever.

I'd say "fuck the haters" but nobody's really hating. Somebody will inevitably improve on this, but as stated the bar's set much higher with the addition of steals, turnovers, and shots.

Thanks (and fuck you a little bit) to LA for raising expectations again for records at a major tournament.

I love stats. Great job on these!

Mpls has been keeping stats, on and off. And for us stats nerds, there can be a lot of information gathered from crunching these numbers.

What we've determined, though, is that stats need there own rule-set. What, exactly, is a shot? Is a shanked shot indeed a shot? The list goes on. So, I came up with a guide for taking stats. That way, we all record them the same.

Mpls decided to track shots ON goal as well as shots OFF goal, so we can get a scoring percentage as well as a goal percentage.

Here is my ruleset on taking stats, if you are interested:

"With a 2-3 person team of statisticians, I think we can accurately tally the following stats: +/-, Goals, Shots ON, Shots Off, Assists, Blocks, Saves, Goals Allowed, Giveaways, Takeaways. Stats will be kept with tally marks on prepared spreadsheets.

Definitions of bike polo stats:

Plus/minus (+/-): Measures a player's impact on the difference between their team's total scoring versus their opponent's. This number will be tallied after a (3v3) game is finished and will be the difference between scores. (For example, in a 5-4 game, all players from winning team will get +1, while all players from losing team receive -1.)

Goals: A player will be credited here, if he/she scores. All 'Goal' tallies must be accompanied by a 'Shot ON' tally, with the possible exception of an own-goal. Own-goals will be credited to the last offensive player to touch the ball, or to the nearest offensive player, at the discretion of the statistician(s); a goal must be tallied for an offensive player, in the case of an own-goal.

Shots ON: On-target shots; a shot that results in either a goal, or a save by the goaltender. A shot deflection off a post is not a 'shot-on'. All 'shots-on' tallies will be accompanied by a tally for a 'goal' or an opponent 'save'; a team's 'shots-on' tally must equal the tally of their 'goals' plus their opponent's 'saves' (unless an own-goal occurs).

Shots OFF: Off-target shots; a shot that misses the goal, including post shots and shots that are blocked by a defender in front of a goalie. Shots that hit a goaltender's wheel or mallet, that appear to have perhaps been wide of goal, are up to statistician's discretion as to how to tally. Shots that are blocked by a defender, in front of a goaltender, will be considered off target, regardless of accuracy. Shots that are blocked up-court by a defender, when there is no goaltender, will be tallied at the discretion of statistician(s). A 'shots-off' tally may be accompanied by a small 'P', to indicate a post-deflected shot.

Assists: An assist will be awarded to a player of the scoring team who last passed or deflected the ball towards the scoring teammate, or touched it in a way which enabled the goal. An assist may be awarded off a rebound, if the ball never touches the opposing goalie's mallet (ie, deflection off a wheel cover). One-timers will be tallied with a small 'OT' to denote 'one-timer'.

Blocks: A block is a shot blocked by any defender, other than the goaltender. A block will only be awarded for blocking an attempted shot on goal (not a pass). A tally for a 'block' must be accompanied by a 'shot-off' tally for the shooting offensive player.

Saves: A save is a shot blocked by a goaltender, or the last player between the ball and net. A 'save' tally must be accompanied by a tally for an opponent's 'shot-on'. Shots that hit a goaltender's wheel or mallet, that appear to have perhaps been wide of goal, are up to statistician's discretion as to how to tally.

Allowed: A goal is 'allowed' when a player is acting as goaltender and an opponent scores. A player is acting as goaltender, when he/she is in the goal 'crease' and is the last defender guarding the net.

Giveaways: A giveaway is when a player's own actions result in a loss of ball possession to the opposing team. When a player deliberately shoots the ball, it will not be considered a 'giveaway'. A 'giveaway' is an unforced error; a 'giveaway' is not the opposite of a 'takeaway'.

Takeaways: A takeaway is when the defending team gains possession of the ball, due to defensive pressure. A 'takeaway' will be awarded to a defender that steals the ball from the opposing team. A 'takeaway' is not the opposite of a 'giveaway'. While 'takeaways' (steals) and 'giveaways' (unforced errors) will be tallied, forced errors will not."

Got ham, that's deep.

Legalize Hand Throws - 2014

Polo nerds: Not afraid to be nerds.

:)

Thanks, Do!

I think we should include a stat for passes that create a scoring opportunity but don't result in a goal. currently we penalize the playmaker for the shooter's inability to finish. for instance koyo had 31 goals out of 105 shots with only 3 assists...based on the numbers it looks like koyo is the kind of selfish player that attempts one pass for every 35 shots. so for future drafting and evaluating this stat would show both the receiving player's percentage at one-timer and the passing players playmaker percentage. IMHO crucial input for building a bench team that has chemistry.

As someone who harbors everlasting scorn and resentment for my teammates whenever they flub a beautiful, feathery soft one timer pass in front of the goal, I heartily endorse this metric.

Legalize Hand Throws - 2014

name that stat!

PTF pass teammate flubbed

A player's ability to successfully pass is going to be reflected in their assist stat. A player to passes more will have more assists. Sometimes, when they pass, it won't result in a goal but why would you need to know the exactly amount of times that happened?

Good passers will have more assists than bad passers or people who don't pass. If you are a good set up man, it will be reflected in the assists stat. If you are a bad one, it will also be reflected.

To know things like why koyo didn't pass as much as shoot in LA, that is what video is for. Stats don't exist to tell a complete story, they exist to measure a player's efficiency in creating goals or preventing goals against because nothing else really matters when the aim is winning the game.

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fixcraft.net

if you're a bench captain it matters because you may not want a ball hog/superstar icing out the rest of your squad (which koyo is not in my experience but the stats say otherwise)...plus if you have a player who never passes but is a scoring machine and they have an off day then you can factor in the possible impact of their streakiness on your offensive lines and make sure they can contribute other than just shooting.

we don't have video of every game to examine...YET.

IMHO goal differential is only truly applicable when the exact two lines play each other...otherwise individual players' chemistry influences the outcome.

jason f-off wrote:

...based on the numbers it looks like koyo is the kind of selfish player that attempts one pass for every 35 shots.

But we know that all ready, we don't need a new stat.

____________
The only reason anyone does anything.
For the lulz.

if you read through somewhere above - i wrote/felt this very same thing

olsen and i realized that we should've had a "chances created" (or assists not finished by the shooter) because there were some amazing passes made but just not finished do to a great player in goal - but thats not at the fault of the passes on the court. "chances created" (or whatever you want to call it) are very important and should very well be a stat!

I play for hugs

mr. do - great list! we would've loved to count shots on/off target too - wouldve been a more well rounded stat sheet.

and we refereed to saves and blocks the same way you did - i go back and forth as to whether they should be lumped together in one count like olsen and i did, or if they should be separated as youve put it. my only thought to lump it is a lot of teams dont play goalie or have a single set "goalie." my thought to count them separate is a save...is potentially a goal where as block not being there may not lead to a goal - i guess thats where your on/off target comes into play

I play for hugs

if you have any questions I have all the stats hard coded into my retinas and other 5 senses........and before you ask Pete , yes I did mean 5

"So this is how it ends"MACHINE

............plus if you post the un edited games the stats will become awesomely apparent

"So this is how it ends"MACHINE

I just started a new job, so I haven't had the time, but when I find a spare weekend, I'm going to implement a simple feature that will record arbitrary stats in Podium's bench feature.

So all I'll have to do is literally list out the names of the stats, and they'll be there, ready to record with a single click.. Dabs, Turnovers, Shots, Blocks, etc. All the stuff mrdo listed above and more!

Its pretty cool that the LA folks spent so much time recording these stats, but that's a tall order for a tourney to do every time. With Podium it is a trivial undertaking to record Shifts/Goals and soon it will be for all the other stats. Plus you get real time broadcasting and live running totals for free..

That'd raise the bar and make stats like these a lot easier to record and compile. I'm sure at least a 2 man team would still be needed (one to watch and one to record) but it would make the process so much easier.

Can't wait.

- Sincerely
Olsen Aviles

LA, just incredible. Thanks so much for the stats, a great job by all. Vince, do you think these podium changes will be ready by July 20? I'm pushing for stat recording at the Euro Bench tournament that weekend.

Yes. I can get it done by then.

Great news! Do you have a list of stats to include?

http://leagueofbikepolo.com/forum/organizing-polo/2013/06/14/podium-benc...

Chime in if you have something good to offer..

Also, will full game videos be released?

did anyone else notice there were only three players with positive possesion triple doubles (double digits recorded in three positive stats and zero turnovers or at least positive steal to turnover ratio)? koyo, dusty and shitty...but not one of the three had double digit assists (shitty with 5, dusty and koyo with 3).

hey LA, great job on this. thanks to the guys for keeping track of all that information, doesn't matter how you did it.