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hooking with mallet to destabilize

(Sorry if there is already a thread for this)
Yesterday when I was defending goal, one of our Havana players hooked my mallet with his to destabilize me. He claims Alexis taught him that it was legal. I hate to believe my son would do such a dastardly thing. I know mallet-on-mallet contact is legal, but surely this is going too far. Can someone please explain the nuances to me? Thanks!

Yes, it's legal.

Is it pretty? no

I've always been taught it's legal. Learn to balance without the mallet as often as possible. When opponents start getting close to the goal, assume they will hook your mallet (balance, keep your mallet close). Hopefully your teammates will keep the opponents out of the crease.

What's really annoying (and totally legal) is when your teammates are nowhere near you and there are multiple opponents in the crease- some of them will hook your mallet while one of them scores on you.

Again, not sure what the NAH rules say about all of this but I've always been told it's legal.

totally legal, and a good tactic.

Yeah, totally legal. Frustrating, but legal.

D FENS

Mallet on Mallet. Bit of a line if it becomes hacking but more often than not it's okay. It's one of the advantages of clipless since you can hop to stay up and in a good position.

I have personally never seen your son do such a thing....probably.

____________
The only reason anyone does anything.
For the lulz.

so what's hacking then?

________________________________________
I can't understand why people are frightened of new ideas. I'm frightened of the old ones.
- John Cage

It's sort of subjective but hacking is a full swing through someone's mallet.

A hook is like a "pull" where you GRAB and then PULL the mallet away.
A hack is like a "chop" where you SWING and then HIT the mallet away.

Hacks are motions that can potentially break mallets. If it's hard enough to dent the mallet, it's illegal.

That's how I'd describe it.

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fixcraft.net

Nick Kruse wrote:

If it's hard enough to dent the mallet, it's illegal.

Some ski poles dent really easily so this really isn't a good metric.

I'm just trying to give him an idea of what is acceptable. I get your point, though. How would you better phrase it?

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fixcraft.net

Intent to damage a mallet is illegal. But it's okay if you're swinging at the ball! Jokes aside, I don't think there is a good way to regulate damage done to mallets. If I reach into the path of someone's full swing from behind them, they shouldn't be penalized for breaking my mallet when they swing. I'd say the best way (there aren't many good ways) to regulate mallet on mallet contact would be to say that everything except a 'big' swing on a mallet is allowed. You could interpret 'big' in a couple different ways. You could look at the windup, the relative head speed upon contact, etc. This is one area where capturing our intuitions with proper verbiage is especially difficult. I genuinely think that mallet-on-mallet contact is the hardest part of the game to write the rules for.

I usually say most forms of up are okay, most forms of down are bad. Most all hacks are a downward motion, chopping, hacking, etc. Lifts are up. I know its pretty general.

I was in this camp as well, but I also think that horizontal swings can be the worst, especially at speed, since it pushes mallet heads laterally and towards front wheels. I think part of the reason here to agree with you is that downward swings tend to be much more forceful than upward swings just because of how human arms work. But force is what we're concerned with more than direction. A downward tap should be okay, an upward wallop should not.

I'd agree with this (but disregard the hard enough to dent bit, as it's vague).

If you are accelerating your mallet into the opponents mallet (applying pressure before the contact), it's a hack.

If you place your mallet onto the opponents mallet, and then pull, it's a hook.

"a heavy tap is not a hack tho 4 sho"

hooking, yes. slashing, no.

Yep, very annoying. I think it's a cheap shot..

meeshellios wrote:

Yep, very annoying. I think it's a cheap shot..

i sort of think camping out in front of the goal is cheap and lazy. so they sort of negate each other right?

Once you play with it often enough, it becomes second nature to pick up your mallet whenever an opponent rolls through with the obvious intention of hassling your mallet.

If they sit in front of goal playing footsie with you, then that's pretty lame. Not illegal, just lame.

Legalize Hand Throws - 2014

Legal.

I love when people try to hook my mallet. Most of the time it's no problem to balance without it and it usually means they are busy fucking around with my mallet when they should be setting themselves up for a pass or to play the ball instead.

Its pretty lame, and rarely ever works, but it seems like its almost more important for a lot of players to tap the defenders mallet rather than play the game.

All that being said, when you know a player that it'll work on, its hard not to.

• TORONTO • OTTAWA • VALLEY BOYS •
bikepolo.to

That's called the Ottawa Sneak.

It's real, ask Rory.

wait till your son start body checking someone else child into the side walls (if you dont have any ,build some ! its fun !)

well, a lefty can come up from behind a right-handed goalie and hook their mallet without blocking the goal while you're teammate can take a shot. that can be useful.

memphisbikepolo.com

Thanks, everyone. This was very educational and I will apologize to the young man I yelled at. Publicly of course, since I yelled at him publicly.

I still think it's mean, nasty, not nice, ungentlemanly and unworthy of bike polo. ☺

________________________________________
I can't understand why people are frightened of new ideas. I'm frightened of the old ones.
- John Cage

So is brake checking someone just to do it, but that's never brought into question. It's part of the game. I'm a big guy and I learned quickly to keep my fat ass nimble while being in net.

Hooking is totally ok, but when people take golf swings to take your mallet out is when I get pissed. As Zach stated above: hooking yes, slashing no.

"The Rules", and what is good, fair play, are sometimes different.

If you are doing anything to try to dab people in an easy pickup game - whether it is hooking their mallet, or riding through their front wheel, or checking them off the ball - then you are being a bit of a jerk. Maybe not breaking any rules, but still.

I think it is ok to talk to people about tactics which are "uncool", even if they are technically not against the rules.

Legalize Hand Throws - 2014

Secondary Alex wrote:

"The Rules", and what is good, fair play, are sometimes different.

If you are doing anything to try to dab people in an easy pickup game - whether it is hooking their mallet, or riding through their front wheel, or checking them off the ball - then you are being a bit of a jerk. Maybe not breaking any rules, but still.

I think it is ok to talk to people about tactics which are "uncool", even if they are technically not against the rules.

I like that approach, Alex. The guy in question is young and has only been playing for a year (already the best in our club!), I think he'll totally get that point. I only yelled because I was shocked, because he's otherwise been entirely decent on the courts (unlike a couple of our fellow poloistas). Thank you! And come to Havana some time to check out the scene, if Obama ever grows a pair.

________________________________________
I can't understand why people are frightened of new ideas. I'm frightened of the old ones.
- John Cage

if there was nothing egregious about it, don't talk to him. no need to stifle someone just because you were taken aback by a legit tactic.

(this is in response to cranberrybogg, i just re'd to the wrong person)

Thing is, this is a brand new club (barely a year old) and we're all trying to learn the rules. I am a virtual ignoramus about bike polo, and the sad thing is I know more than anyone else in the club. I'm trying to transmit the rules as faithfully as I can, to let Michel and the other muchachos know what is ok and what's not, for when (if) they get to play with people from other countries. I'm afraid he'll be more stifled if I let him go on thinking it's illegal. He's going to Chile in June and I hope will get to play there; if someone does it to him in Santiago and he gets mad because I told him it was illegal, it will be my fault.

Also, Cubans are VERY competitive and these guys are keeping track of cumulative goals over the season (it's hard to even get them to stick with pickup; they want permanent teams and tourney-style play every week!). The ref didn't count his goal because of me, so I'd better fess up and make sure he gets credit for it. ☺

________________________________________
I can't understand why people are frightened of new ideas. I'm frightened of the old ones.
- John Cage

for sure. i think we just got our wires crossed on this one.

the sentiment was for the folks sayin' earlier that mallet hookin' was in poor taste, when it's not.

suetre to Michael and the crew.

Secondary Alex wrote:

I think it is ok to talk to people about tactics which are "uncool", even if they are technically not against the rules.

let's start a list! note: I don't think any of these things are uncool. I'm just echoing what I can gleam from other folks here on leagueoffacebook

ball-jointing
double goalie
moving offensive screens
hulk smash/dropping the hammer/freedom punch/knuckle drag

you forgot AIDS, pete.

There is nothing about AIDS in the NAH ruleset, just let people play the game man.

Legalize Hand Throws - 2014

forgot those pesky wrist shots ;)

cranberrybogg wrote:

Thanks, everyone. This was very educational and I will apologize to the young man I yelled at. Publicly of course, since I yelled at him publicly.

I still think it's mean, nasty, not nice, ungentlemanly and unworthy of bike polo. ☺

Priceless. If only the rest of the world had your outlook

"So this is how it ends"MACHINE

x2

grow a pair

Are you telling you mother to grow a pair?

____________
The only reason anyone does anything.
For the lulz.

What about when a player is swinging down to get the shot and then someone give a tap just enough to make him miss the shot? I know is not nice, but is it legal?

Legal. One of the best ways to break your own mallet though!

kev wrote:

Legal. One of the best ways to break your own mallet though!

Not really, if you give a gentle tap only to change the mallet's direction.

I think that is good defense. If you want to take a big wind-up slapshot, you've got to make sure no defenders are in the area to mess up your back swing.

If you are in traffic, you've got to go with a "smaller" shot.

Legalize Hand Throws - 2014

yeah- one of life's little joys is hooking a mallet right at the peak of a big windup.

Oh yes!! I love it when you are defending following from behind trying to catch up the offensive player against your goalie and you just block their shot. Sunday I did that to a guy here in Rosario, Argentina and he got pissed with me and said it was illegal what I did, but hell he got pissed cause he did not see it coming but it was not a swing or an aggressive contact with my mallet I just put mine right in the peak of his swing, sweet!!

This is from the rules of NAH and they interpretation to me it is really clear.

10.8 Goalie contact: A player may use their mallet to hook, shift, move, etc. the

mallet of the player in goal in an effort to get them out of position or prevent

them from stopping a shot. Body-to-body contact or any incidental bike

contact with the goalie is permitted only if the contact is between the player

with the ball and the goalie.

I think what is key to this kind of contacts with the goalie it is how it is done, striking it is not cool, dangerous and illegal. Moving it, hooking it upwards, etc legal. You just need to be aware of your surroundings when you are goal keeping and be prepared to lift your mallet and balance while they are trying to get you out of the goal.

Hooking is great fun, hooking and pulling someone off their bike is hilarious.
If my mallet is hooked and the other player pulls, i really like using that force generated to turn real sharp or use it like a slingshot and get lots of speed/momentum from it
Slashing sucks though

Legal, and a good tactic. I don't think it's distasteful or dickish either. As for the distinction between hooking and slashing, IMHO, always try to hook. If you successfully lock mallet heads, and end up in an eagle fight / talon fight, you'll

1) Better disrupt the player's defense (possibly disarming them)
2) Be safer for both people
3) Be less likely to damage equipment

What I'm trying to say is that the legal move (hooking the mallet) is strategically superior to the illegal move (slashing the mallet), so there's nothing gained with flirting with the line between the two.

Combination of choice: Smash + Bang

repeated hooking to stop a player getting at the ball with their own mallet seems to be super common recently. it often results in someone getting hit in the face or something as the players (can be either) try to unhook their mallet. often, the hook ing is in place of someone just playing the ball. its a really effective tactic but the more frantic it becomes the harder it is to get out of without an ocassional mess. any rule on this/thoughts on this?

I have noticed the quickness with which a player escapes a "hook and hold" correlates highly with their experience and skill in other facets of the game. I doubt this is a coincidence.

I don't think the hook n' hold is a broken strategy yet.

Legalize Hand Throws - 2014

Hooking is a legit move and doesn't mean the player on the receiving end gets a green card to "go crazy" with their mallet. I agree that sometimes players have a tendency to get frustrated and try anything and everything (twisting your mallet is pretty safe and is often more effective than anything else).

Sometimes accidents do happen: if you end up making mallet-to-body contact then be prepared to be penalised.