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Tap-outs as penalties.

Are we completely done with tap-out penalties in tournament play?
If I let my mallet get under someone's front wheel, do I go tap out, or should I play until the whistle?

play the whistle. play the whistle.

unless they broke their face/neck. Then you should probably make sure they are okay, and still don't tapout.

fuck yeah, don't self goveren! if the ref don't call it its not illegal! being a dick is ok again!

Yeah, fuck sportsmanship in the face. Nice guys finish last. Spit on a fool once you lay them out with a dirty wheel pull... Call them a bad name, too. There won't be a whistle.

lomax wrote:

There won't be a whistle.

Do something about it.

I think that by his sarcasm he is implying he would tap out. That's doing something about it. We all acknowledge that reffing is a difficulty currently. The best thing that we can do about it is to not exploit it. If something incidental happens, which a mallet under the wheel is a good example of, then tap out. Play to the whistle is a philosophy that makes reffing even harder to implement in the long run.

____________
The only reason anyone does anything.
For the lulz.

I'm not sure I agree with this. I think that if you think you did something wrong and don't hear a whistle you should apply the appropriate penalty yourself. Tap out is not the correct penalty for a mallet under the wheel. The rules state a delayed penalty in which the fouled team receives possession of the ball. If you put your mallet under someones wheel say sorry and give their team the ball. Tapouts are for dabs.

Then turn the ball over, the same theory applies. If I mallet someones wheel I'm going to "tap out", or turn the ball over or circle out, or some other shit.

My answer is largely off topic but who cares.

____________
The only reason anyone does anything.
For the lulz.

Medic.Mike wrote:

Play to the whistle is a philosophy that makes reffing even harder to implement in the long run.

I disagree completely. There is a serious problem not only with player's understanding of rules/reffing but also the crowds. While Kruse, Kremin and Adam were reffing in april they were all (with extreme efficiency) calling penalties like this, delayed or not. What I noticed with the delayed penalties was that the crowd would already be heckling the ref as if they missed the call (despite the hand clearly being up) and certain players on the bench would already be arguing with the call or perceived lack of call. Thankfully it didn't effect the quality of the reffing.

Shit is changing. At least in other sports the crowd waits for the replay on the jumbotron before they all boo the refs. But a call is a call. The players and the crowd absolutely need to let the ref do their job. It's not as hard as it seems. Claiming otherwise is self-actualizing. It just takes practice.

I agree with the refs doing their job, but if I do something that I know is against the rules I am going to atone for my actions on my own accord. As per my statement above. Refs are involved to introduce outside judgement to the actions on the court and to make sure that the decisions that we as players make, often under duress, are within the scope of the rules. If you know the rules you shouldn't act outside of them, if accidents happen it's simple enough to knock the ball to the other end of the court when you swipe someone.

I agree that shit is changing but that doesn't mean that part of that change can't be players understanding the rules and acting accordingly when they've broken them. This will make refs jobs much easier I think. In regards to heckles from the crowd and players. Refs are the final authority, players, the crowd and organizers need to respect that. Just because refs are accessible to those groups, the crowd in particular doesn't mean that the ref needs to pay attention to them at all.

____________
The only reason anyone does anything.
For the lulz.

I hear you, for sure. There is just absolutely no precedent set for that which comes to mind, in any competitive sport. Logically, you play the whistle so that if you team you committed the foul on scores, the foul is null. Otherwise there are unnatural breaks in the flow of the game. If your foul gives you advantage, it gets called immediately, if the foul does not prevent a scoring play, the benefit is obvious.

I guess it's not really an issue of what "feels good" to me. I don't swipe peoples wheels on purpose, so when it happens I don't feel like a dick, and I keep playing because I know the whistle will blow the second we gain possession. That's fair to me.

roustem wrote:

I hear you, for sure. There is just absolutely no precedent set for that which comes to mind, in any competitive sport. Logically, you play the whistle so that if you team you committed the foul on scores, the foul is null. Otherwise there are unnatural breaks in the flow of the game. If your foul gives you advantage, it gets called immediately, if the foul does not prevent a scoring play, the benefit is obvious.

I guess it's not really an issue of what "feels good" to me. I don't swipe peoples wheels on purpose, so when it happens I don't feel like a dick, and I keep playing because I know the whistle will blow the second we gain possession. That's fair to me.

maybe we should be setting precedent then. we keep looking to other sports too much, so it leaves us open to "well in soccor blah blah, in hockey blah blah blah, in curling, blah blahblah blahblah blah". I don't understand the need for that. i've never played a sport where i needed the rules to be compared to me by another sport. all that play the whistle shit does is allow people to skirt the line looking for not quite illegal tactics so they can argue instead of play in the black and white set forth. because people are better at arguing sneaking and being dicks then they are at deeking and shooting and riding their bikes.

kristxw wrote:

i've never played a sport where i needed the rules to be compared to me by another sport.

Because they've been played for decades and have official rulebooks that have been debated and get changed constantly still after being played for decades while former players, coaches and current players all argue about those rules.

Or what sport are you referring to?

roustem wrote:
kristxw wrote:

i've never played a sport where i needed the rules to be compared to me by another sport.

Because they've been played for decades and have official rulebooks that have been debated and get changed constantly still after being played for decades while former players, coaches and current players all argue about those rules.

Or what sport are you referring to?

i didn't need someone to explain soccer to me using lacrosse as an example, or i didn't need someone to explain wrestling to me using boxing metaphors. i'm sure the two both developed rulesets on their own.
i understand that most people are stupid, and don't want to have to learn, think, adapt, etc. i just wish more of those people would be less vocal. people know when their dicks, and i guess as the stupid jock mentality seeps in deeper and deeper, the class and clean play seeps out out.

Sports draw on one another all the time. Rulesets are like languages in that they all have the same basic syntax. Other sports have encountered the same stumbling blocks that our sport has, and it would be stupid not to learn from their experiences.

That said, I completely take (what I think is) your point that bike polo should cling to the elements of bike polo that make it unique. I really like the self-regulating aspect to bike polo, and I think that even as we are developing rules for tournament play we should be careful not to lose the fact that at it's core bike polo is a pickup sport. Road hockey or 3-on-3 basketball are variations on hockey and basket ball; tournament polo is a variation on polo.

Tap outs are nice because they are an easy way to self-regulate. You don't need to communicate to your teammates that you are penalizing yourself. However, they're hard to enforce and don't really work in the context of structured play. The move towards turnovers as opposed to tap-outs in tournament play is, imo, a positive move. That said, tap-outs work great as an all purpose penalty in pickup play. I'm totally happy with having a similar but different ruleset so that where there is a ref, the penalty is a turnover, where there isn't it's a tapout. I'm just left a little confused every now and then about whether or not to tapout.

Preying mantis on the court and I can't be beat...

Oh, so you like the way rules are handled in Ultimate frisbee?

Frisbee jocks are still jocks...

roustem wrote:

I don't swipe peoples wheels on purpose, so when it happens I don't feel like a dick

Kinda off topic here, but I'd like to say that being a dick isn't merely about intention. Even if someone is merely trying hard and going for the ball, they can still do so in a negligent manner. If someone is crashing into everyone and constantly hooking wheels, they are a dick regardless of whether or not their intent is to be a dick.

In short, not all dicks are purposeful ones.

I agree with you.

I was merely implying that just because you empathize with someones situation (falling down), it does not mean you should *necessarily* play any differently. Obviously, if it's happening frequently something needs to be corrected in that persons play. I would argue that a foul being whistled often would be an indicator to even the least intelligent player that they are playing like a dick.

For starters, jokes. I self regulate. I tap out with, or at least wait for, players that I wrong whether by accident or... By accident. I don't intentionally do sloppy or reckless shit, and if I do, I own up immediately. I listen for a whistle, and when there isn't one, I do like I said. I even pick up mallets dropped by opposing players and return them from time to time. Why? I do it all out of camaraderie and sportsmanship. Show it and hopefully it is returned.

The point is, it all starts with you, the player. Don't play like a shit bag. Beat teams with skill, not by seeing who can get away with more or play with less scruples. Don't count on the whistle because it might not be there.

On the "do something" front, cram it. I did something. I went to BM2 and gave reffing a go. I got treated like shit. I watched the best players of the day play like maniacs. I made calls, good and bad, like any ref. The amount of disrespect shown to me that weekend has turned me off of the idea indefinitely. When respect is shown for the position, maybe I will try it again. Until then, I'll do my part by not playing like a dick and making it easier on the poor sucker with the whistle in their pocket.

Somehow, I haven't met you, yet. When I do, let's have a drink. You might have the wrong idea of me.

well said sir

lomax wrote:

I self regulate. I tap out with, or at least wait for, players that I wrong whether by accident or... By accident. I don't intentionally do sloppy or reckless shit, and if I do, I own up immediately. I listen for a whistle, and when there isn't one, I do like I said. I even pick up mallets dropped by opposing players and return them from time to time. Why? I do it all out of camaraderie and sportsmanship. Show it and hopefully it is returned.

Yes, well said, I couldn't agree more.

Quote:

Don't play like a shit bag. Beat teams with skill...

It really sucks to see players that you look up to pull dirty shit to win, especially when they don't have to. They can win with skill and its 10x more admirable.

lomax wrote:

The point is, it all starts with you, the player. Don't play like a shit bag. Beat teams with skill, not by seeing who can get away with more or play with less scruples. Don't count on the whistle because it might not be there.

I agree with you so hard on this, from a philosophical perspective, but you can't codify it into the rules. It will merely punish the honest players and give the dicks a free pass. That's why you have a universal rule and it falls on the ref to enforce it fairly.

Your end-goal here is the responsibility of outreach and the community. Leave the specific in-game enforcement to the refs. It'll happen man, I'm super confident it will.

Just play the whistle, and if it doesn't come, you can be a nice guy and tap, but *some* players won't and then you'll be wondering why you bother.

Wheel hooks are easy to spot. It's steering arm infractions that are infinitely more difficult to judge from a ref's stand.

You guys can go tap out and "do the right thing" if you want, but eventually you might lose because of it and it would suck to be your teammate in such a scenario. As a referee, I'm not concerned with what you do after you mallet someone's wheel but the penalty will be called on the delay and if you want to spend your time going to tap in rather than trying to get possession of the ball, that's fine with me.

When you get scored on because you didn't keep playing, though, you're going to look silly. You've turned a simple error that would result in a ball turnover into a free goal for the other team and thus over-penalized yourself. You glutton for punishment, you.

If you swipe someone's wheel and then immediately get the ball and don't hear a whistle, then yeah, passing the ball to the other team is a pretty cool thing to do and you're a pretty cool dude... but if the penalty is on the delay and their team still has the ball, you better keep going. There is room for doing both things without being a dick. It's sports! We're here to try and win.

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Nick Kruse wrote:

If you swipe someone's wheel and then immediately get the ball and don't hear a whistle, then yeah, passing the ball to the other team is a pretty cool thing to do and you're a pretty cool dude... but if the penalty is on the delay and their team still has the ball, you better keep going.

Quoted because nothing else matters.

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