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WHBPC 2010 - Berlin

WHBPC 2010 - Berlin
Friday, August 13, 2010 - Sunday, August 15, 2010
Host club: 
Berlin
Contact info: 
morganrallen@gmail.com

It is official! Berlin is hosting 2010 World Hardcourt Bike Polo Championship! The site is up and open. Pre-Registration is slated to open March 1st. Check the site for more info and send any questions to info@whbpc2010.org

Location

Rennbahnstraße
Berlin
Germany

Signed up

nice logo!

Fuck yes. Nice work Morgan.
Can't wait to get back over to Berlin.

nice. I like what I see so far, including qualifying for the tournament. I'm sure you guys are going to raise the bar pretty fucking high with this one.

I'm opening up the sign up but want to make sure everyone knows this is NOT registration. This is to let us know who is coming from where. So sign up if you intend to come and think it is actually feasible.

57 kegs a tourny bitch!

this is going to be amazing!!!

Rik
Berlin Bike Polo 2010
London Bike Polo 2008 - 2010

Semplicemente : "Großartig!"

stoked for this!

LONDON>>>EVBP>>>LONDON

So how the spots will be distributed?
August is worst time for cheap flights
they are kinda expensive already....

kino wrote:

So how the spots will be distributed?
August is worst time for cheap flights
they are kinda expensive already....

Distribution will roughly be broken down by level of local organisation.
Well organised will be X per country,
then region, city, then open registration for teams who do not have any regional organisation. Registration opens Monday and hopefully in the next couple of days the numbers will be settled.

With that, any North American reps reading this please email me with the LOBP contact form.

57 kegs a tourny bitch!

so what's the word? who gets to go to this?

here i was thinking it would make sense to have the top 20 from each the NA's and Euros, with 8 spots to be distributed between Asia, SA and Oceania..

Something like this sounds right, but reckon the good Berliners will get it just right.

MALICE for the people.

Hey everyone, please take a second to fill out this survey so we can figure out who is coming from where and give out a breakdown.
http://leagueofbikepolo.com/whbpc2010/survey

57 kegs a tourny bitch!

deadline this Friday.

aka tomorrow.

checked the site they have up, it says...
"The abacus beads are still clicking away to determine how many teams can come from which regions. We expect to have the final numbers and open registration March 1st."
So maybe I didn't see it but how many teams from the N.A. region?
I guess tomorrow is the day for that. Just saying I'm looking forward to the info.

thanks,

Doug D
Brooklyn, New York
hardcourtbikepolo+gmail+com
hardcourtbikepolo.com

*twirling thumbs*

what's taking so long? (at least)
why is this thread so quiet?

Doug D
Brooklyn, New York
hardcourtbikepolo+gmail+com
hardcourtbikepolo.com

i´m not good in waiting for news, as well....please give us news..

+1

I allready bought the airplane tickets...

_______________________________________________________________
El Vaquilla hubiese jugado Bike Polo.

sorry, we are still in talks with Kevin and Jake about how many teams per region. i think we can tell you end of the week. thank you for your patience

Jake from ATL (braxis07) and i are working on the Tournaments committee of NA Hardcourt, which is helping to figure out how X number of spots will be distributed around North America. Once all the regional reps from NA Hardcourt approve a system we'll will announce it. We should know by end of March or April 15th at the latest, which gives everyone three months to figure out their plans.

People have to give these guys some time. Planning the Worlds this year is going to be a nightmare. So many big scenes, so many small scenes. We are lucky the Germans took the task.

MALICE for the people.

buying tickets to europe in august is also going to be a nightmare, folks just want a chance to buy tickets while they're somewhere close to affordable

i think NA Hardcourt will have this figured out at least three months ahead of the tournament.

any updates on this?

dustinfromseattle wrote:

buying tickets to europe in august is also going to be a nightmare

The days was chosen for the WC are really the most expensives for flying :((

Anyway: Berlin crew is gonna to make a great job!

DeutchesOrganisation!!!

GO ahead guys!!

i don't think august tickets ever drop below $1000 return between continents, i also don't think they'll increase until 12 weeks in advance, which is mid-end of may

Iceland Air, in my experience, has the most reasonable "regular" rates to Europe as well as some excellent seat sales. They fly into Berlin, Frankfurt, Munich and Dusseldorf depending on where you are flying from. They also fly to many other convenient European cities depending on your plans over there.

They fly out of Toronto and Halifax in Canada and Seattle, Boston, Minneapolis, New York, Boston and Orlando.

Free stopovers in Reykjavik as well.

Just throwing it out there. I haven't actually looked at the prices for dates surrounding WHBPC. I just know it doesn't come up in regular searches but is a worthwhile option.

Air Berlin are doing 1 way flights from JFK to Duesseldof for about $550 - then if you pre book trains to Berlin. That will be the cheapest 1 way I think. If you pre book 1 way from Amsterdam on the train its 29 euro.

On the edge of my seat here in Melbourne. Will move heaven and/or earth to be there if I know there is space to play. Australasia represent!

T

World is expecting Berlin...

Due to the crushing number of applications for the available tournament slots, a system has been developed that will hopefully select the 64 teams in the fairest way possible.

From Europe and North America will each have 27 slots, and Australasia 4. This leaves 6 remaining
slots. These slots will be played for in a preliminary tournament to be held in Berlin on August 12th.

The North American entrants will be decided by the North American Hardcourt Committee with help from Kevin and Jake ATL and should be finalized by April 15. All questions or concerns from North American teams should be directed to them.

As the Europeans lack a committee, the Berlin organizers undemocratically dictate this solution. Perhaps at this years Europeans in Geneva we can discuss the formation of a European committee.

The European slots will be allotted as follows:

UK 6
Germany 5
France 4
Switzerland 3
Spain 2
Italy 3
Netherlands 2
Denmark 1
Hungary 1

Each of these countries must select an Ambassador to communicate with us the method for selecting the eligible teams. We ask that all selections be finalized by April 30. Naturally, the proper way to carry out the selection process is to hold a national tournament, as is being done in UK and Italy.

If your team did not make the cut, that does not mean there will be no polo for you this summer in Berlin. Of the four polo courts, two will be dedicated to pickup games.

three cheers for undemocratic diktat!

can't wait for berlin.

Think you'll be one of the selected teams eh Jackal?

How is going to be the 12th august tornament? Any special format? How many teams can register, and when? Thanks!

_______________________________________________________________
El Vaquilla hubiese jugado Bike Polo.

How is going to be the 12th august tornament? Any special format? How many teams can register, and when?

_______________________________________________________________
El Vaquilla hubiese jugado Bike Polo.

registration for this qualifiying tournament will probably start in june. format depends on how many teams register for it. (no cap)

Come on!! Like in EHBPC the italian mafia is pulling strings....

_______________________________________________________________
El Vaquilla hubiese jugado Bike Polo.

For all the italian guys:

http://leagueofbikepolo.com/forum/tournaments/2010/03/19/italian-selecti...

thank you for your work stefan

Stefan, what if North America has fewer than 24 commitments by April 15? Are the spots given back to Europeans?

we will decide that after we have the final numbers.
we probably give it to the preliminary tourney on august 12th

Don't you think 30th april is tooooooo soon for organizing and finalizing national selection??

we want to know your ambassador and how you organize selecting the eligible teams until then.

that's OK thanks!

so what's the dead line to tell you the teams names ?

Steffan, will you be open to other way to select the 6 teams from UK, or you will take the 6 first teams, in the UK CHamps, regardless anyting else?

in other words, is up to us to decide how to choose them (6 teams) or if up to you?

Rik
Berlin Bike Polo 2010
London Bike Polo 2008 - 2010

Rikk, its up to you. we just think its the proper way to hold a national champs. if you decide on a different process - do it. we don´t care

Thanks for all your work Berliners! Does your accommodation begin on the thursday or friday night?

T

will basically start on thursday, qualies start on friday already. if you come earlier contact me, we´ll find something for you.

Thanks Stefan, appreciate it.

T

Hi Stefan,
i will be your contact person for the french country.

We have no idea yet how to organize a qualification system during the next month. Anyway, 4 places is nothing for all those french cities which play polo now. But we will do something here to figure out who goes to berlin.
What happens if only 10 out of the 24 north american teams show up? 4 for Australia? You should clarify this to avoid a mess later.

How much do i have to pay you to do me a favour here (The italian way)?

MfG
Stephan

Jeejejej, just 100 mallets and 20 chucker weelset.

_______________________________________________________________
El Vaquilla hubiese jugado Bike Polo.

mach mir ein Angebot das ich nicht ablehnen kann...

can we register a 4 person team?

x2

so, out of curiosity, how would you want to play a four-person team jonny?

copied from the rules on whbpc2010.org:

Players:
Teams will consist of 3 players.

Is this up for debate? The reason i ask is just that making the trip to berlin is going to be expensive and there are players who might want to go but there team mates can't. I don't think 4 players is an advantage as long as once a team is on the court those three players finish the game.

A lot of sports allow for an alternate to play with them. I don't see why this will be problematic for polo.

i would see lots of issues. for sure once a team went into the loser's bracket and had to play a lot of games in a row, having an extra fresh player would make a big difference there. of course it's an advantage, you wouldn't even have to play the fourth player if you didn't want to, you could see which three are hot and bench the other. this is an endurance contest over three days and fresh legs can easily tilt a game even in the preliminaries much less a final.

sure lots of sports allow for alternates-- but they aren't bike polo, aren't centred on just three players, aren't ad hoc arrangements, and don't have just one team with an alternate.

i wouldn't have a problem if you brought four players but only played the same three the whole weekend.

I agree that the extra player could add an advantage for the issue of fatigue. I think this is negated a bit by tournament level play will encourage having the three best players on the court for most games.

Your argument about why bike polo is different then other sports need greater articulation. I don't see the connection.

so what if one has four evenly skilled players?

- other sports have rules for subs, polo doesn't.

- most other sports have more than three players (lessening the importance of each player), polo doesn't

- other sports wouldn't allow one team to make subs while the others couldn't, should polo?

i see polo as an endurance game that centres on keeping three players healthy and strong over three days. subs changes this. show me a final where both teams aren't exhausted. saving a player for sunday could make a big difference in a tournament.

Still don't think you have articulated this well.

We don't really have many rules for polo and there is lots of variation both in tournament play and in pick up.

Some sports do have three players and allow a player that isn't subbed during the match but can be subbed between matches.

I'm glad you see polo that way. How do the subs change this? Is this endurance that you are talking about really what is important and if so why?

jonny, i'd be all for taking four players to a big tournament if it was allowed for by the rules and all teams brought four. one team on an ad hoc basis seems unfair.

i don't see the endurance being 'good' or 'bad' for polo-- it is just reality on a three-person team over a two-day tournament. giving another team an extra 33% on the bench isn't an even playing field.

see we actually agree about this. I'm not asking that one team get an advantage, i'm just asking that everyone be given the option of a four person team.

we do and we don't. i see changing the rules of a major tournament and opening up a whole can of worms just to accommodate one city's needs as backward.

shouldn't madison figure this out and leave us out of things?

i also don't think that the 'option' to bring four players is fair. all teams should be mandated to bring three or four players, but not either.

It isn't a madison need for this tourney. It is a question about how the sport functions.

If there was a rule change here why mandate a 4 player team? We don't currently mandate a 3 player team? We don't mandate that a player uses a mallet or that his bike is functional. I don't even know if we mandate that a player rides a bike.

Mandates are for Health insurance, not bike polo.

we do mandate three player teams. isn't that the point here? that you want to bring four people to a three-person tournament? am i missing something?

bike polo can have five players for all i care, as long as every team has the same number.

how do we mandate three person teams? If a player gets injured and can't play we don't disqualify a team. Teams have registered with two players all the time.

stefan wrote:

Teams will consist of 3 players.

but it does not say teams are limited to 3 team members.

Doug D
Brooklyn, New York
hardcourtbikepolo+gmail+com
hardcourtbikepolo.com

Perhaps you have this in the wrong thread jonny. Would you allow 4-person teams to register in Madison?

This does seem a significant shift in the rules. Whether it would be good or bad is another issue.

If you allow four, why not allow 6?

your right this isn't the best thread for this. It was initially a question and now it is a debate.

Now to your question, four person teams at NAHBPC. I would allow a four person team but i'm not the one making the rules, the rules are being set by NA Hardcourt Rules committee which i'm not a member of but i have been discussing the rules with them.

I think it is less relavent though at NAHBPC for a couple of reasons. The first is that we are not limiting teams that can enter (i guess this is not technically true but i don't think we will hit the 96 team limit) so it doesn't make sense for us to think of ways to include more people without overcrowding our tournament. Also, since the travel costs to madison are cheaper then too berlin so it is easier for teams to form for NAHBPC then for berlin.

Fielding a team of three from the southern hemisphere is proving hard enough. (Finances/time off work being the most pressing concerns) Knowing that any team we get over there may be up against teams with fresh euro/north american legs makes for harrowing polo dreams. I'm expecting a schooling in the skills department but let me kid myself that i'll be fit enough to keep up!

T

maybe in Australia we just dont take bike polo seriously enough :)

--
bikepolo.com.au
urbanbicyclist.org

sorry to not answer your final question. I think that 4 player team is reasonable because it allows for one sub and while it does help with endurance it doesn't create an issue where so many players are on a team that they aren't a distinct team. I think six is two many because one reason that i want a 4 player team is so that we can include an extra player who might not have a team. If they had 6 then why not register an extra player.

I have no opinion on this either way, just curious if anyone knows...

What happens if you get there, make it a few rounds and one of your players is injured to the point they can no longer continue playing; both during the game (finish with a 2v3 scenario?) and after the game (source a third from the crowd to further compete)?

Do you sub from the crowd, play with two, or are you SOL?

past tournaments have allowed a sub. SESPI even had a four person team.

Sespi also had 2, 2 person teams with a third that played on both teams. And kicked ass.

fuck ur face

It is a good debate, the sub thing, having said that i dont think we should debate this over a poor bastard not being able to come. My simpathoes for him/her. There'll be an extra tourney for those not being able to get in and overall the ezperience will be worh the trouble n money. If someone gets really hurt, lets hope not, We'll figure sth out.that is up to the organizers to say what.

To sume up i dont think we shouldt debate a general rule over a singular case. Me thinks

It isn't a single case. My point is hypothetical in nature.

well if it's hypothetical i'm all for subs in bike polo, always have been. i have long advocated for the 4 player game. it would fairly address most injury scenarios, allow for repairs and mechanicals during the flow of the game without stopping it, provide a coach for players on the court, and add another dimension of specialisation and substitution to the game.

all of this would have to be addressed by a ruleset that treated all teams fairly, posted well in advance, tested and modified at several tournaments before making a debut at a world or continental championships.

making ad hoc sets of rulings for disparate scenarios is not the way to ensure a fair and balanced tournament.

4 player as in 4 on the court or 3+1 sub?

Hm. Would be a little challenging team building. Would you rather be sub on a hot team or a player on a cooler team.

4v4 would probably be plenty fun on a big court like LA's.

Interesting idea.

Dear Berlin,

What is the deal for a team that is a "hybrid" team, made up from players from different regions, how do they qualify? I'd imagine there are quite a few hybrid teams thinking of going...

Thanks

LONDON>>>EVBP>>>LONDON

i guess it is about different regions from the us - please ask your comittee or kev how to handle

not me. NA Hardcourt will be announcing something soon i think.

It has been announced.

Retired.

Who do we contact about registration monies?

fuck ur face

We have not yet started collecting money, hope to have it setup this weekend and collecting next week.

57 kegs a tourny bitch!

North American teams announced here:

http://www.leagueofbikepolo.com/forum/general/2010/04/26/important-new-w...

Wade
Seattle Bike Polo

UK teams (decided by the UK Championships held in Manchester):

1. Cosmic3 (Mat, Todd, Tom)
2. Rotten Apples (Emilie, Gabes, Rik)
3. BAD Polo (Brendan, Aidan, Dave)
4. Malice International (Andy, Iain, Matt)
5. La Shmoove (Dave, James Brown, John)
6. Polo Fiasco (Adrienne, Aidan, Josh, Tony)

MALICE for the people.

Hallo Berlin!
Kurze Frage zu der Anzahl deutscher Teams:
Ursprünlich hieß es 5 Teams aus Deutschland. FFM organisiert ja jetzt das Quali-Turnier Anfang Juni.
Anna hat jetzt was von nur 4 Teams geschireben. Wisst ihr da mehr? Weil 4 ist halt echt wenig...
Grüße aus KA,
Hannes.

hannez wrote:

Hallo Berlin!
Kurze Frage zu der Anzahl deutscher Teams:
Ursprünlich hieß es 5 Teams aus Deutschland. FFM organisiert ja jetzt das Quali-Turnier Anfang Juni.
Anna hat jetzt was von nur 4 Teams geschireben. Wisst ihr da mehr? Weil 4 ist halt echt wenig...
Grüße aus KA,
Hannes.

Hallo?

Sorry Hannes, Germany does get 5 teams. Not sure why Anna thought only 4. I will let her know.

57 kegs a tourny bitch!

captain_morgan wrote:

Sorry Hannes, Germany does get 5 teams. Not sure why Anna thought only 4. I will let her know.

Hey Morgan! Thanks for the answer...
Talk soon!

also so wie es auf der seite ( http://www.whbpc2010.org/ ) steht sind es 5 teams aus germany!?

Hey great web site!

My team all have our tickets booked for this! My first time in Europe; needless to say I'm excited. I arrive in Frankfurt early morning of the 11th of August. Anyone from Frankfurt driving to Berlin or can guide me as to what train to take? Is there a large group from Frankfurt going on the 11th or 12th?

EVBP
nsbikepolo.com

See my comment on the going to Berlin thread- a bunch of people are flying into Frankfurt, I'd love to coordinate all of us meeting up, possibly with Frankfurt polo, and traveling to Berlin together. I'll be visiting my family, so I won't want to leave Frankfurt until Friday morning if possible.

polopolopolopolopolopolopolopolopolopolopolopolopolopolopolopolo

.

57 kegs a tourny bitch!

We are now accepting payments for teams. If you have been selected in your country/region already you can send your payment now via Paypal. Send to stefanlech@gmx.de
When sending the payment, please please please, include in the message portion (at the bottom) the following.
Team Name
City (city being represented for mixed city teams)
ALL 3 Players names, cities and EMAIL ADDRESSES.

This info will be used to setup accounts on the WHBPC2010 site.
If you have questions, email us at info@whbpc2010.org

57 kegs a tourny bitch!

how much we need to pay?

Rik
Berlin Bike Polo 2010
London Bike Polo 2008 - 2010

France selection is done!

1st Apologies accepted (Paris)
2nd MGM (Paris)
3rd Rolling Hoods (Grenoble)
4th Dans ta gueule, Puceau (Paris)
.................................................................
5th DBAA (Rouen)
6th Poloccitan (somewhere in France)
7th Broken Legs (Rouen)
8th Marteaux Players (Paris)

poloccitan => Toulouse

by the way: how much to pay per team?

hi everybody, at the moment we´re pretty tight up with organising the german qualifications for the championships, which will be in Frankfurt soon. but, don´t worry, we´ll take care of everything according housing and so on, really looking forward to having you all here. In order to estimate how many of you will be arriving here on the 11th and 12th of august, please write me an email and let me know, greets anna
gnufisch@yahoo.de

Sorry, forgot to add that. It is 60 Euro.

57 kegs a tourny bitch!

We need a ride from Amsterdam to Berlin anytime before worlds can anyone help us out? there are 2 of us and we will be in AMS on the 5th or 6th till we get a ride or just ride our bikes there.

Thanks

Ifuckinglovepolo

German teams:

Polosynthese (Frankfurt)
Candy Colored Clowns (Karlsruhe)
Shark Attack (Karlsruhe)
Tor(er)os (Munich)
Polo d'Oro (Karlsruhe)

Can't wait!!!

No teams from the host city? That's cold.

Retired.

2 Berlin teams are qualified anyways...

lucky wrote:

No teams from the host city? That's cold.

when can teams register for the 12th pre-tournament ?

The preliminary tournament on August 12th

America will come with 19 teams only and there is also no Australasien team yet. So there will be more than the 6 slots to fight for on August 12th. That means there are good chances for you and your team to qualify last minute.

The tourney will start at noon. The format will depend on how many teams register for it (there is no cap for the prelim tourney). Registration ends on July 31th. Shortly after we publish format and timetable on our web page.

We will publish the registration form here and on our website tomorrow.

great news thanks

registration for the qualification-tourney is open!

please use this form: http://tinyurl.com/whbpc2010-preliminary

Hey there stefan.
There are 4 Australasian Teams!!!!
We've all worked pretty hard to make this happen. Please don't give our spots away.
I'm not sure of the process but tell us what to do to confirm.
(I recognise that the registration fee needs to be paid. anything else?)

Australian teams:
"polocalypse now" Tali, Rob & Virginia (Melbourne/Sydney)
Maija, Lewis & TBD (Sydney)
Tom, Steve & Dan (Adelaide)
Damon, Ray & Anthony (Melbourne)

T

very glad to hear about. 4 australian teams - great!
please send me email-adresses from your teams (one each) for more informations.

Teams who are qualified already will get mail within next days for more informations. Can someone send me an email-adress from one player of this team please?

Amanda – Tampa, FLA
Nano – Seattle, WA
Leslie – Seattle, WA

e-mail sent.

the j is for jesse
Troy, NY: 2008 - 2010
Seattle, WA: 2010 - 2013
Austin, TX? polo!???

Yo Stefan, sorry we have been out of communication here in Australia, but rest assured we're getting our asses on some flights and gonna party it up with you lot!

rob / polocalypse now

BERLIN!

Paid.

(and just spent several thousand dollars on plane tickets)

--
bikepolo.com.au
urbanbicyclist.org

please post the rules as soon as possible

140x65

rules are already posted on the website.

id like to diacuss a pair the rules grey aspects. non aggressive body to body contact or bike what does it mean exactly? can i throw for example a non aggresive elbow or a non agresive arm over the other player arms. is this rule entirely on how the referee sees it?

anothrr ... cupping to goals then you have to pass. you mean there wil be a goal area? if not what does this rule mean ?

bonus, things that are not in the rules

can you score with the bike f.e. front wheeling or back skidding?

can you cup the ball and holding it in the air advance?

what about air mail or shootin from an air pass(scary high mallet)

and no maximum length on mallet head?

whoa that was too much for one post but i am at work my ipod and lots of polo worlds hunger

thank you for your patience i look forward to yoyr answers

we still discuss the rules and will publish a final version soon. please give us some more time, we know you are waiting for it and will hurry up.

Okay so who wants to pull a team together for the preliminary tournament on Aug 12? i want to play and we have to register by July 31 - one day tournie to fill 11 spots... let's do it... not sure exactly how the mixed teams work .. but send word and we'll register.. hah better book my ticket TODAY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

just updated...
http://www.whbpc2010.org/

WUPAss
EVBP foreva

Okay so who wants to pull a team together for the preliminary tournament on Aug 12? i want to play and we have to register by July 31 - one day tournie to fill 11 spots... let's do it... not sure exactly how the mixed teams work .. but send word and we'll register.. hah better book my ticket TODAY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

just updated...
http://www.whbpc2010.org/

WUPAss
EVBP foreva

Some of the London contingent are looking to form wild-card teams:
http://www.lfgss.com/thread37689-7.html

Also, consider extending your Euro stay and play in the London Open the weekend after (London will house you and Berlin -> London flights are cheap, you may be able to share a vehicle with other players too):
http://www.lfgss.com/thread41457.html

website is working now! check www.whbpc2010.org

@ qualified teams: if you didin´t get an info-email on june 25th then we probably don´t have a proper email-adress from you. please contact us on info@whbpc2010.org

can you please explain why you are using the a single elimination format? Double elimination has been used at most major tournaments for the past few years. There are lots of advantages to the system as it allows for better ranking. Please advise?

jonny wrote:

can you please explain why you are using the a single elimination format? Double elimination has been used at most major tournaments for the past few years. There are lots of advantages to the system as it allows for better ranking. Please advise?

x2!

x2 in favor of Double Elimination

indeed

Yorgo

true that, double elimination FTW!

Rik
Berlin Bike Polo 2010
London Bike Polo 2008 - 2010

yeah, i have to agree double elim all the way!

LONDON>>>EVBP>>>LONDON

Double x2!!

some thoughts that lead us decide for single elimination:

-the thing about: "its the final but maybe there is another final if the winner of the loserbracket wins that game" - that sucks

-a championship is made to find out who is the best, not to make up a ranking up to place 24 or 32. who cares about if a team ends on place 7 or 8?

-we got two tournament-courts only (40x20meters) plus two or three pick-up-courts (30x13m).

-it makes it more exciting

The final's where the team from the loser bracket wins the first game are awesome. Last years worlds is a good example. Seeing East Van beat Seattle then Seattle come back was one of the best polo matches ever.

Double elim is a much better system for a sport with short matches. It allows for more games to be played. I know that a championship is to find out who is a winner but it is also important to allow teams to match up against each other evenly and see where they end up in the ranking. A single Elim tournament is not very good at that when the matches are so short.

Two Tournament courts are fine for 32 team double elim in one day.

It is way more exciting to have a double elim. There is a history here and i think that it has been shown that double elim works great for polo. This is a world wide tournament and lots of teams are traveling to come play here. I think it would be a little awkward if you guys just decide that Single Elim is better. Both European and NA championships this year are double elim.

x2
Flying to europe to loose one the first game of the second day is pretty bad. And what about the fact that the sunday gonna end at 15h00. Making all the loosers angry to not have a second chance to get on top.

By the way, how many game per team on first day?

looks like 3 games each day. 8 Min matches. Stephan. Kevin Walsh and I have done a lot of scheduling for tournaments in the past. Give me a holler and i would love to chat with you about this and scheduling (we have a pretty nifty spredsheet and program for NAHBPC)

uolmo wrote:

x2
Flying to europe to loose one the first game of the second day is pretty bad.

FULLY AGREE!

>-the thing about: "its the final but maybe there is another final if the winner of the loserbracket wins that game" - that sucks

I agree with this point, but we play sudden death finals for all our double elimination tourneys to address this.

Overall like double elim better, it's better to get some semblance of ranking throughout the results. People WILL look through the results and compare 7th and 10th etc, without looking at the brackets and making a more thorough analysis.

Also, I'm travelling 15,962km to be there :)

--
bikepolo.com.au
urbanbicyclist.org

London made it on 2 courts with 32 teams the second day.
For the final with 2 games. In paris l'équipe comme back and win the 2 games, it was an amazing polo moment.

Don't care about the ranking under 3 first, that's not the point here I think.

Have a second chance is great.

It's all about the double elim; it's much more exciting to watch a team fight their way to the final through the losers bracket, there are more competitive games for people travelling half way across the world, and it's a much better way to find out which team is really best (since they have to beat more teams!).

MALICE INTERNATIONAL (London)

it's just as exciting to see a team climb out of the losers bracket to get into the finals. jonny's points are all great ones, on top of the whole flying to europe to get knocked out in round one. x 6 for double elimination!

Double elimifuckination. I'm traveling far, and at great expense, to compete here. Double elimination eliminates a "bad game" and allows a good team the opportunity to prove that they are just that.

Okay catfish, I'm going to move my mouth like this...

Double elimination!!!!!

Double Beseitigung bitte.

EVBP
nsbikepolo.com

Double elimination please. Why not build 3 courts of tournament play and have two for pick-up?

to explain the current plans of the berlin guys as far as i understood them, and why i think the plan is good:

- top priority: maximum number of matches for every team, whether they qualify for the final round or not. everyone takes a long journey to play in this tournament, so the most important thing for every team is to actually play as much as possible. this means: extensive, well seeded first round (fri, sat, half of sunday, 14 matches per team) followed by a rather short final round for the best 16 teams. so the total number of matches played throughout the weekend is shared in a more balanced way

- why no double elimination: double elimination works best if you have no first round, if you think the results of your first round are not very significant (for example because there are not enough matches played), or if you don't have the possibility to do an accurate seeding of the competitors (second best team can still finish second even if they play the subsequently winning team of the tournament in the very first match of the final round). when we put up greif masters here in karlsruhe, we couldn't figure out a reason to play d.e. other than it beeing common. we didn't find any example of tournaments in any sport that use both a first round and d.e. (please correct me if i'm wrong), which probably is because d.e. makes any kind of first round obsolete and enables you to save time (in our case with the disadvantage that there would be teams travelling to germany to play only 2 matches!).
basically, there's no need for a second chance in the final round if you had 14 chances in the already seeded first round to make your way as easy as possible. an extensive first round makes sure that you have an accurate ranking before the finals, which allows you to seed the teams good enough to ensure teams of equal strength won't play each other too early. by rank from first round: 1st vs 16th, 2nd vs 15th, ... while 1st and 2nd will encounter each other in the final at the earliest, if at all. a team that wins the first round will only get weaker opponents for the beginning of the final round, so you can expect a win from this team in order to be admitted to proceed. i would state that east van wouldn't have had to fight their way all through the loosers bracket into the final of last year's world championships if there had been a better seeding for the final round. same for the seattle-milwaukee match in the final round of ESPI5. those teams should never have encountered each other that early in no matter which elimination system.

- concerning the ranking: using the system described, there will be the following ranks: 1, 2, 3, 4, 4 shared 5th, 8 shared 9th places, ONLY if you don't play any additional matches. but it's exactly these additional matches that provide better ranking with double elimination. more matches for the first 16 teams means less matches for the other 48.
abandoning a more precise ranking between 5th and 16th in favour of 48 other teams is ok in my opinion

- "but it's awesome if a team fights it's way all the way through the loosers bracket!" - yes, indeed. but this only occurs when two equal teams encounter each other too early. this may be thrilling, but in the end it distorts the ranking.
apart from that, in a single elimination tournament, every match is a final. every single match is thrilling as hell, it's about make or break.
either way it's dramatic, yes

- we tried this with 40 teams and it works. to our experience, results are representative.

my conclusion would be: single and double elimination are equally thrilling, while single elimination is more effective in the matter of time and provides a better balanced matches-per-team ratio.
my impression is that many players want d.e. because they're used to it, not because it's superior (if there is a "superior" at all in this case). still, this is only what i think.

in the end, making everyone as happy as possible should be the major concern. in my opinion, maximum number of matches is a very important point for this. single or double elimination is a different question, BUT: accurate seeding, based on the results of the first round is very important to get representative results in the end, no matter which system is used for the finals.

so: extensive first round, small but nice final round, please

Where are you getting this information? The Worlds website says 6 games per team in the first round, with 32 teams going into a single elimination final.

London Bike Polo

Max is setting up the format/schedule for WHBPC. It's still under consideration, and i think what he posted above his the most recent formulation. the website is not updated.

.

EVBP
nsbikepolo.com

Max, i support it. Sounds like you have your shit together and your head is in the right place.

Doug D
Brooklyn, New York
hardcourtbikepolo+gmail+com
hardcourtbikepolo.com

Im into it!

Ifuckinglovepolo

Dear Steffan and Berlin bike polo,

Please make it a double elimination. It is the standard for a reason. It's better.

Good work otherwise.

cheers,
matt

MALICE for the people.

that's the point, what reason?
i was looking for this reason and never found it. so i think it's all about the habit. but please, convince me otherwise :)

Agree. If you can manage to fit in 14(!) games for every team in the first round, then a single elimination final is fine. Nice work!

London Bike Polo

+1

_______________________________________________________________
El Vaquilla hubiese jugado Bike Polo.

Here is why.

1/3 of the tournament is flying across the world to play in this tournament. I think that is a sufficient reason. Build another court and have less for pickup as mentioned above. Explain why you don't want to have 3 tournament courts at the world championships??? 2 courts is not enough. 14 games is not sufficient to rank teams there will still be some teams not ranked correctly. The only way to rank teams correctly is to have everyone play everyone. With this many teams this is not possible (we've done it in Cascadia with 20 teams).

I will explain my experience from last years worlds as a member of Ballz Deep. In a limited round robin with radon assignment of teams and 8 minute games we had a loss and a tie and were ranked in the middle of the pack for the second day. First game we played L'Equipe (European champions) and won a really hard fought match. Next we played Smile (North American Champions) and lost 2-1. Under single elimination our tournament and L'Equipe's tournament would have been over. Once in the loser bracket we played 8 games before we again met Smile. We lost in the second game of the final. Great format I think for everyone involved in the second day. At least our day was not over after one bad game.

I know you've tried this in Karlsruhe (but people were not flying across oceans) and from this site you will notice a vocal opposition for a reason. Why try and reinvent the polo wheel if you will a month before the tournament. (once we've all bought our tickets and are going into debt to play a tournament with one expectation but get another). Lets still play 14 first round games and double elimination for the final. Please tell me it isn't court constraints. I'll play the loser bracket with hay bails if that's what it takes.

rory,

thanks for your reply. please don't missunderstand me, what i've posted is absolutely not fixed. the reason i made this suggestion because i was terrified by the plan of doing a 32teams single elimination. i think we all agree that this would be a bad idea. my suggestion is now the current favourite for the berlin crew, and not more than that. i'm just looking after my suggestion here
let me assure you that putting up a successfull tournament is the most important thing for everyone over here. there will NOT be made ANY decisions that are disliked by the majority of the polo players.
i won't try to convince you of my opinion, it's not in my interest push the single elimination by any means neccessary because i would be madly in love with it, and in the end i'm not the one in charge. i'm only providing advice, and i told the guys to let the community decide. let's wait for everyone to get a say in the forum

nevertheless, i'll try to clarify the things i didn't explain in detail, so you might get a better idea of the actual plan:

- first of all: the fact people are travelling a long way is my and the berlin guy's major concern. 14 games for everybody is what we think is a good thing for all of us. i don't know your team, but you may have chances to reach the final while nobody wants to send home other teams who also spent lots of money to get to berlin and also had to take vacations and so on right after first round with only let's say 7 games (other proposals)

- of course there will be 3 courts

- 80% of the problem you described about last year's worlds are due to the random assignment of the groups. this is exactly the point. in my opinion the first round has to be seeded. north american and european champion should NEVER get assigned to one group(!!!). my suggestion includes the following: the first step of seeding (first round) involves rankings from earlier tournaments. for example european champion/na champ, then national or urban (bigger citys with many teams) champs, espi, etc. with 16 spots in the final round to fight for in the first round, there will be 16 teams seeded like this: top 2, top 4 (next two teams), top 8 (next 4), top 16 (next 8), each pack spread as widely as possible. top 2 definitely won't encounter each other on their way towards the final, top 4 most probably won't as well, could be for top 8, and is rather likely for top 16. group design is modified round robin with overlapping groups, which is meant to eliminate chance as good as possible. hope you understand what i mean. this system comes from rugby tournaments and was used both for greifmasters and the uk championships, it definitely is approved. if you're interested i will explain it in detail.
as i wrote, the main problem is when equally strong team kick out each other on their way to the final. seeding is never 100% accurate, of course, but it does a decent job
but in the end, it's still the worlds. if you lose, you lose, really, this is not little league. works just fine for over 50 years in the soccer worldcup. given the requirements described there can't be any excuses anymore, it's make or break. as far as i'm concerned...

- 14 games in the first round only works without double elimination (if both was possible, the discussion never would have started). playing the loosers bracket on a philly-style hayball court while the rest is played on proper courts would really lead the whole thing to absurdity. there have to be equal circumstances, otherwise it makes no sense at all.

all about the seeding....!

as i said, show me THE reason for double elimination, and i'll be your biggest fan, delete my post and everything is set. but as apparently nobody in the community knows this reason, lets at least discuss it.

cheers,
max

I understand how seeding works and single/double elimination. You're right that it is the world championships so defend seeding as you wish but in the end a team will always be seeded incorrectly in their opinion it happens in every tournament where everyone does not play everyone. Double elimination allows for a control for mis seeding. The seeding had to be based on round robin but you will have insufficient data. In double elimination I don't feel bad for giving a team a loss because they have either another opportunity or they've already lost. I also feel like one bad game with a couple lucky bounces (which happen all the time in polo) my team does not get knocked out of the tournament. Glad to hear there will be 3 tournament courts the same size. Thoughts Max?

Gl

not sure if i got you right. no, having a bad day (or two) in the first round won't kick you out. without calculating, i'd say losing up to 3 matches out of 14 will keep you in the tournament. however, losing one out of seven first round games and two in a double elim final will kick you out.
i'm not defending seeding, as it's never exact. this fact just gets less important with a rising number of matches

14 first round games + single elim final round vs. 7 first round games + double elim final round
better seeding + stricter final round vs. worse seeding + less strict final round
controlling mis-seeding through playing more games vs controlling mis-seeding through second chance
more games for everyone vs. less games for 48 and more for the remaining16 teams
that's what it's all about

If you look at the court schedule it seems that you could do 10 games on fri and sat. and then a double elim on sunday.

I'm talking about the finals, not the round robin. In general I could care less about the round robin. It is the finals I care about and want to see as double elimination. We've tried to convince you and you just keep responding that your seeding will be correct. You keep saying the games in the round robin will not be random. Then how do you get a representative fraction of teams. Especially teams from around the world you don't know? 8 minute games blow and often don't show the best team in a game to 5. So again you do not have sufficient data to seed. But seems like you've have closed your mind to our arguments. As I have to yours

maximum wrote:

if you lose, you lose, really, this is not little league. works just fine for over 50 years in the soccer worldcup

The thing with football is that you have 90+ minutes to play. Single elimination seems reasonable in that scenario. Double elimination works out much better for short matches, ironing out problems in the seeding.
Why don't you make a large round robin, so that everyone get to play a lot and a smaller double elimination. Not 32 teams, but only 16. Best of both worlds

*Somebody please think of the children!!*

I don't think that double elimination is just because of habit. We have experimented with single elimination, swiss rounds, point systems, round robins. Players like double elimination because you get a true second place team. The best two teams will play each other in the finals. Also, having more teams play games is great but having games that matter is more exciting. Double Elimination increases the intensity of the matches through the finals. Once you get to 12 teams left in the finals the quality of play is so high that the best polo is being played.

I think that the large reaction to this is because of the issue that occurred in NYC where two teams that should have been in the semi finals met in the first round. It was unfortunate that this happend because it took away from the number of good games that could be played. If this where to happen at worlds i do believe it would be a much higher tragedy. By giving the best teams an opportunity to fight it out to through a winners and looser bracket we get more quality polo. The worlds should be about trying to have the most high quality extremely competitive games.

i agree, having only 12 teams left guarantees thrilling games. irrespective of the elimination format used.

the nyc problem you describe is all about the seeding. teams that should have been in the semi finals may never encounter each other in the first round by any means. double elimination just would have erased the consequences of this mistake in seeding. the problem remains

I really don't think that the 14 games at 8 min will give a very accurate ranking. There are a couple of reasons here. The first is that the round robins themselves will be random. So some teams scheduled will have to play a much more difficult schedule then other teams. This does not create a better ranking system. You keep arguing that 14 games will do a good job setting a ranking but i don't see how that can occur unless you had more games spread out over a period of time.

The single elimination does a poorer job of getting the 12-16 best teams into the end of the bracket. One side of the bracket could benefit from easier rounds. Look at the world cup right now, uruguay is not one of the four best teams in the world and they are in the semi finals. That would not be a problem in a double elim.

What i don't understand is that we have experimented quite a bit with double elim and single elim but you keep saying that this system you created is better. It has been tested and people really like the double elim better. Let people get their games in on fri and sat and use sunday to produce fantastic games and correct any ranking errors.

have a look at my other posts, round robins will NOT be random.

the world cup has only 3 games in the first round, which doesn't allow exact seeding, and still results are ok. btw, uruguay is 2 times former world champion and kicked out france and mexico.

as i said, please convince me otherwise. i'm not trying to push my suggestion, it's my job to hear what people think about it, so i have to make sure it was understood
don't worry, the majority will decide

Theoretically every team must play every other team to produce an accurate ranking going into a single elimination. While 14 games is a lot, it depends on games being only 8 minutes long, which is super short, and the schedule for round robins being kept perfectly. (10 hours Friday and Saturday, 5 hours Sunday). As a spectator and as a player who hopes to be in the top 16 teams, i'd much rather have more, longer, competitive games (Sunday double elimination) than short lots of short uncompetitive games where the first team to score is almost guaranteed to win. That's my opinion. This is a pretty geeky technicality, i'm sure it'll be awesome either way.

don't worry about the schedule, there is enough safety buffer
having less opponents will get more lottery involved. 8 minute games still suck, yes

again, all this is my opinion for now, and i'm only the one who was asked to make myself unpopular with discussing and testing if the plan as described is ok for the community :P
please excuse me

i agree, it will be awesome either way

Please have longer games than 8 minutes. I understand they can't go on for too long or not all the games will get played. My feeling is that games should be a minimum of 12 minutes in round robin.

EVBP
nsbikepolo.com

Maximum,

It's not personal. It's not about you being the popular or unpopular one. I appreciate that you are throwing yourself out there as the sacrificial lamb for this format but you do need to listen to the majority. Three highly respected and knowledgeable polistas (Rory, Jonny and Kev) have written extensively on why they disagree with your proposed model and yours is the only lengthy support of it. Please revisit this. A polo game IS about bounces sometimes. It can be a game of inches. It is a game that requires TIME to play. The drama of a game that goes beyond one or two goals is much more exciting and, in my opinion, a much more accurate display of a team's prowess. There is most definitely a decision to be made here. Jonny's idea to have 10 games spread over Friday and Saturday and then a double elim for the top teams seems to be the most prudent system. You have the courts for this. You have the time for this. Do it!

Thank you very much for your impassioned responses. This discussion has been very fruitful. It is my hope that this will be the end of it.

Sincerely,

Falcon

Okay catfish, I'm going to move my mouth like this...

Rory, Jonny, Kev, Falcon, and everyone else who's participating in this discussion: thanks for your responses! hearing what people have to say about this plan is all we wanted to achieve for now. more opinions are welcome at any time
what everyone said is already taken very seriously here and will be the basis of the format that will actually be used

again, none of your concerns remain unheard. i'm not the one in charge, and even if i was i'd strongly refuse to decide all this on my own. same for the berlin guys i think

The basic plan of "14 game" round robin followed by single elimination is fine by me. I agree that a relatively short, well-seeded, single elimination can be fair and exciting.

The challenge will be in setting up the seeding round in a fair and balanced manner. Purely random placement of teams into groups for seeding matches would most likely give you mistakes. In determining the brackets you want to make sure top teams are separated such that they will not play each other until (if) they make it to the elimination round. You also want to try to separate teams by country such that each group consists of teams that never or rarely play each other.

Setting up the seeding groups to meet these ends will be a tough puzzle. We lack solid documentation of past performance for the majority of teams. This makes it practically impossible to judge whether the round robin brackets are reasonably balanced. I think you would be well served if you asked a small group of people (perhaps 2-3 from each part of the world) to review the round robin setup prior to making it public. These people should be familiar to everyone, preferably with some tourney organizing experience. This review should make the round robin brackets go forward without questions and complaints.

Finally, I agree that 8 minutes is very short for these matches. Please consider a setup with fewer but longer round robin games, if possible.

Thank you and looking forward to seeing you next month!

concerning the seeding: forgot to mention those details, thanks, you're 100% correct, couldn't describe it better.
as many want less but longer games, i'll talk to the berlin guys about this as soon as possible.

this is absurd, everyone is acting like we have never had over 50 teams at a tournament before. seattle one year ago, it ran like a top and i would challenge anyone to say their games on sunday weren't fairly seeded. if you've held a big tournament on two courts with double elimination that ended before midnight on sunday, chime in here.

we've done this many times in many places, it's not rocket science. there *is* a way to seed 32, 48, or 144 teams with fewer games, more accurate seeding, and better matches for everyone. i don't know why we want to re-invent the wheel all of the time when we've already agreed on what produces the best results.

it's called swiss rounds with double emilination, it's been done for over two years now, and it is by far and away the best format for determining the bike polo champion of any tournament, much less of the world.

http://lmgtfy.com/?q=swiss+round+tournament

swiss round saturdays followed by double elimination sundays have produced beer-point finals between the two best teams for pretty much the past 18 months. there are computer programs that will do everything for you, it's amazing.

a short list of cities that have played double elimination tournaments that i have been to in the past three years: vancouver x7, seattle xmillions, portland x13, LAx2, SF, calgary x3, new york x2, boston, philadelphia, madison x2, chicago, toronto, milwaukee, pensacola. other people have been to other tournaments, let's hear from you.

east van will never host another non-swiss rounds tournament ever again, and a non-double elimination tournament would just not fly anywhere in north america for a major championship. it is by far the most tested, true, and logical format for ensuring that your final will be played by the best two teams left standing on sunday, not eliminate each other in the first round.

please listen to the voices of reason from the players above, single elimination sucks and is possibly a deal-breaker for many players from North America that have not already paid their registration fee. they have collectively been to hundreds of competitions (i have played in 19 final matches at major tournaments in the past three seasons) and represent years of tournament experience from in and outside of bike polo.

don't make single elimination the new haybales. don't even get me started about eight minute games. that's like having a fifteen-minute futbol match, the teams haven't even began to warm up.

the north americans are this weekend and you can bet this will be the main point of conversation.

x3 if you agree

kingston hammer ball 2011

''Don't make single elimination the new haybales!''

nice.

EVBP
nsbikepolo.com

what kind of balls are we using?

Yes indeed, please have hard balls, not soft and sticky. Ice helps but only goes so far.

EVBP
nsbikepolo.com

thought I'd chime in on this one... for the folks across the pond that don't know me, I've written software for and ran (with help) two of the largest tourneys in the last season... Midwest 7 at 45 teams and NAs at 66 teams. I've spent 100+ hours pondering these issues and designing fairly complex software to run these tourneys...

Seeding:

without a doubt, Swiss rounds are the only, and I mean only, way to get an accurate seeding of a pool of teams of significant size (10+). in a round robin, you'd have to play a ridiculous number of games to get a good seeding. a real round robin is an all-play-all deal. the only way to get a good seeding with less than 60 rounds, or even 20, is if you were capable of doing statistical analysis on the results to weight each game based on the results of the opponent, which also have to be weighted - welcome to infinite recursion hell. without that weighting system, the result of a game really gives you no valuable information, because a win against the eventual winner counts the same as a win against the last place team.

with the Swiss system, every result is packed with meaning, because all the previous results of every round are embedded in each round. a win actually means something, and a win at the top to the rankings means more than a win at the bottom. this is a very good thing, and a round robin just can't do that. in just six rounds on day one, the NAs Swiss seeding predicted 9 of the top 12, and all we did to get those results is pre-seed teams for the first round as either 1, 2, 3 or 4

as a few have said already, a single elim is only acceptable with excellent seeding, and that is impossible with a round robin.

now, running a Swiss system is very difficult for such a large tourney, without a doubt. I spent a huge amount of time preparing for last weekend's tourney. it might not be possible to do it by hand, and I can't guarantee my software would work for you from across the planet... for those reasons, if a round robin is used, I HIGHLY recommend a double elim bracket

if you have a round robin system you think will work, please describe it to me, I'd love to hear the plan

excellent post. this would also be much easier if the tournament were broken up into groups, as it is easier to schedule and manage say, a morning and an afternoon group. for as many teams as would be at the world's i would be tempted to break it into three or even four groups.

any thoughts on single v double elimination?

also, seattle ran software to run a swiss-rounds system at tour de polo in 2007, there's lots of experience out there in how to do this. their system even allowed teams to "check out" and not schedule their games until they checked back in. amazing.

i didn't know the swiss system before. looks good so far. wikipedia mentions this: results at the top and bottom are quite accurate, while "the players in the middle tend to be jumbled with little meaningful order". did you encounter this problem in one of your tourneys? do you have any experiences on what places might be affected by this?

for now, our plan for the round robin is using the "dresden system":
teams will be arranged around a circle of 360 deg. (like on a watch). every team gets to play x teams to the right and x to the left from its own spot.
basically, this is round robin with overlapping groups of variable size.
this system was used at the uk championships for example.
given a desired pause between each match of a team, you have some sort of window of time moving along the circle, making sure that all matches of a team are not too far from each other in time, just as if you had groups or blocks.

seeding: we will mainly use the results from na's and euros to do the first seeding. apart from this, we will figure out if there is any team that did not compete in those tournaments but should clearly be considered a top team anyway. as we know the european community, we will take care of this for the european teams. north americans are welcome to suggest an embassador to do this assesment (i already thought of kevin)

for the dresden system, this would mean: the top teams of this ranking will be spread apart on the circle as far as possible. 1st-8th will not play each other. 8th-16th will not play each other, but will each play one team from 1st-4th and one from 4th-8th. everyone else will have to play teams of all kinds of ranks

i also wrote a software to set up and schedule this system (amongst others). i'd like to hear more about the swiss system to figure out if it's worth implementing and/or using for the worlds

Gah. I need to study the Dresden a bit.

For ambassadors I nominate Rory in addition to Kevin. Most likely Rory has experience with all of the Western North America teams. Kev most likely knows the Eastern teams. I recommend perhaps seeking two more NA ambassadors.

as for as the wikipedia mention of "little meaningful order" - i definitely disagree. their example uses chess matches, which have a very simple result: either win or lose. In polo, you have the scores to help seperate the middle pack in a very meaningful way. for example: a 5-0 win is ranked higher than a 3-2 win. I'll be posting the fine grained results from the NAs today, so i'll link to them later

I ranked teams by: [Points, GoalDifferential, GoalsFor]

The "little meaningful order" comment on wikipedia could be demonstrated in an academic essay. It would be too technical for our purposes. It's been too long since I've studied this sort of thing for me to try a lecture.

Tourney organization is part art, part science. The science behind seeding need not be perfect. Organizers must be practical, get games organized and played, generate an exciting finale. One has to make a tradeoff between the speed of getting a reasonably good ranking and a full round robin series among a large number of teams. The Swiss is a great approach.

Again, if we are doing full round robins among many small groups the whole Swiss question is moot. The focus needs to be on making the groups balanced.

Vince, top level professional chess sees far more draws than wins or losses. It's led chess organizers to run short time limit style games to force fewer draws. Players hate it, especially the best players. Organizers like it because spectators want to see wins and losses, and tourneys with predictable end times.

If you want to know exactly what Chess tournaments use for data and what compromises they have to make to structure tournaments to time constraints and audience wishes, look no further than St Louis.

Occasional bike polo player and St Louis Chess Club and Scholastic Center manager Tony Rich recently organized both the mens and womens US chess championships. That's right, world - not everyone in the StL is a goon!

Retired.

I'm saying that since we count goal differential, there are way more outcomes than win loss tie (5 times as many). therefore, in polo, swiss rounds yield "very meaningful order" in the middle, the top, and the bottom.

check out the results i just posted: http://leagueofbikepolo.com/nahbpc-2010/thread-2#comment-55368

For example, in the SatAM bracket, there are a number of teams with the same record of 9pts (3wins, 3losses), but the top ranked team has a +9 differential, and the bottom a -6. That is meaningful order.

POLO != CHESS. Has a chess master ever tried to claim he's better because he had more pawns left over at the end of the game?

i worked with Leon to rank the teams 1, 2, 3, or 4 for NAHBPC, though, this ranking only mattered for the very first game of Swiss Round so it wasn't that important. Another possibility is to set up a poll for the 21 members of N.A. Hardcourt to rank all participating North American teams, so we could get input from all regions here. Obviously the results of NAHBPC will factor in big for everyone, although a couple of big teams were missing or incomplete (Trefoil & Doug/Paul/Zack in particular)

Polls make my bwain hurt.

Leon has beaten me more times than Rory has so I think he also makes an excellent ambassador. In fact, I am reminded that Leon & Joker provided this assistance to me in my first polo tourney. Things have been peachy since.

I actually think the ranking you did was extremely important to the Swiss rounds...

It seeds the tournament with a meaningful start. If it were random, it would take a round or two to get to a ranking similar to how we started. It doesn't have to be precise, just those 4 main groupings, with vague order inside them.

Once we had this ranking, I then staged the first round of games so that team 1 played team 66, 2 vs 65, 3 vs 64, 4 v 63, etc... This is what i've been calling the "Suicide Round" I think it's very important to start the tournament this way. It gets the most value out of the first round. The top 1/4 teams are very likely to win their first games anyway, and the middle 1/2 play games against reasonably similar skill levels, and start their trajectory with a game that is contributes important information to differentiating teams apart.

"suicide round".........?
yikes.

T

The Swiss system is superior when the number of teams makes a full round robin impractical. As I understand it, our hosts are planning to do seeding from many small groups of teams, each group playing a full round robin. Discussion of the Swiss system is irrelevant given this plan.

The key to making the ranks from the seeding round valid for the (double) elimination will be to ensure each of the small groups are comparable. For example, imagine one group contained only the best teams in the world, and another group contained all newbie teams. Two teams come out of these seeding group rounds with 7-7 records. These 7-7 records are clearly not comparable. It would be horrible to qualify some newbie teams and disqualify some champion teams based on this plan.

If all the groups in the seeding round are evenly balanced (i.e., newbies and champions evenly distributed across groups, along with everyone else) then the ranks across groups will be comparable.

Based on what I know of the plan, the seeding groups must be carefully balanced. Balancing the seeding groups will be the key to determining valid seeds for the final elimination round. This should be a major focus for the organizers. I'm sure we are all anxious to know who we will play against to determine our rank going into the elimination round.

One final suggestion. You may have two or more teams with identical records on the cusp of qualifying for Sunday. It would be ideal if you can allow a playoff qualifier match in this situation. This happened in LA this past January. Sunday started with one match to determine which of two roughly equal teams would earn the bottom seed for the double elimination, and which would be out for the day. Everyone felt this was perfectly fair.

aw jeez, forgot the most important part:
there will be one big ranking in the end. teams will get 3 points for a win, 1 for a draw and 0 for a loss. this ranking decides which teams play in the finals.
in case of identical points, goal difference will decide. in case of identical goal difference there will of course be a playoff

arranging the teams around the circle as described is meant to make sure that what you've explained won't happen. best teams will be spread apart.
there are no groups, just one big pool. as teams next to each other on the circle have always similar, but never the same opponents, this is something between groups and a complete round robin.

here is what was decided at the ehbpc this weekend:
games will be timed to 12 minutes in the first round. there will be a double elimination final round on sunday.
thank you everybody for sharing your opinions. nobody here wants to enforce single elimination when there is not a vast majority for it.

if we want to resume this discussion after the worlds, the results from that tournament will be the best basis for it

Thank you so much for this! This truly is what most people have been expressing. You rock!

Okay catfish, I'm going to move my mouth like this...

seriously max, you guys just made the best decision. swiss rounds and double elim are the way to go, you have made many travellers very happy.

YES!

If arriving into Berlin from frankfurt by rail which is the best stop to exit the train?

train stops at Hauptbahnhof (mainstation) further way check here: http://tinyurl.com/berlinjourneyplaner

the adress you go to is: Rennbahnstrasse 48, 13086 Berlin

its 2,10 Euros for public transport, bike is extra unless its still packed in a bag

Is the rule set for this set? I have seen the rules on the whbpc10.org site and am wondering if they are finalized.

no sorry is not set yet. please give us one more week.

whats the best site to use to find flights in europe?

here anna from frankfurt.
I lost all e-mail kontakts because my computer was dead...
For all those arriving Frankfurt, please send me an e-mail again so I can help you..
gnufisch@yahoo.de
I look forward

Hello Berlin, I'm wondering what the court sizes are going to be? the site map looks like there are two sizes? Sunday games will be played on which size?

Thanks

EVBP
nsbikepolo.com

Court size? Has that been announced yet? Sorry, if it has but I can't seem to find it here or on the official site.

2 courts 40 meter x 20 meter
1 court 32 meter x 15 meter

can I play all my games on the 40x20 please

15 meters wide will feel like playing in a shoebox

Doug D
Brooklyn, New York
hardcourtbikepolo+gmail+com
hardcourtbikepolo.com

No Doug, you can't.

do i detect an anti east-coast bias?!

i call bullshit!

doug should get to play wherever he wants!

he named our sport!

i and i think as many games as possible between north american and european games should happen. and all those australasian and african and antarctican and jamaican teams should be evenly scheduled in too. friday and saturday that is.

"how water walk go a pumpkin belly"

A Favour to ask to all you berliners..
I am shipping my Bike back to Australia on Monday the 16th and need an address for the DHL van to pick it up from.
I would just give them the address of the courts but I fly out of Berlin the same morning.
So basically, is anyone willing to have my bike (all packed and paid for) at their house until it gets picked up?
Anyone else have this issue?
Danke

T

we are at the courts monday morning anyway. so give DHL this adress and tell them my cellphone number +49 163 312 58 29

Thanks Stefan, that's brilliant!
Cheers.

T

Can we get a team list? I'm dying to know all the combos of North American teams.

/edit Oh. I guess they are listed. But I want names! http://www.whbpc2010.org/teams/

please check here: http://tinyurl.com/teams-at-whbpc

if there is something wrong or missing - please contact us

Doug, Paul, Zack - NYC
we are missing??

Doug D
Brooklyn, New York
hardcourtbikepolo+gmail+com
hardcourtbikepolo.com

row 29 USA2 Profane Lobotomy -Paul Rauen -Zach Blackburn -Doug D

RULES
are published here: http://www.whbpc2010.org/rules/
its very close to NA and Euro rules so everybody is used to it already. we assume most players taking part in the worlds were playing NA or Euros - so please tell us if the rule set that was used there was functioning or what didn´t work. especially did the referees put it in action?
biggest diffenrence for NA-players: ball-jonting is allowed but you have to pass to before shoot at goal
as already announced we are having double elim on sunday but the seeding is still in discussion but will be published next wednesday the latest

-Mechanical problem. The team with the mechanical problem may request a timeout only after they take possession of the ball.

this caused some controversy at the euros. maybe time-outs should return to the old way of only being able to be called after a goal.

agree, was a mess in the euros...
But i think it can be easily enforceable with more explication in the introduction speech.

4.4 – Ball-joint: wherever blah blah gotta pass blah blah

really? own zone only works and looks so much better.

Doug D
Brooklyn, New York
hardcourtbikepolo+gmail+com
hardcourtbikepolo.com

Yeah maybe, but i never saw an european tournament with this rule. How does it work, when the player bj in offensive zone? Ref stop the game and give the ball back to defensive Team? The offensive go back to their camp?

Why is that better than the BJ->Pass before shot rule. It look more easy to enforce.

It works as you are allowed to ball joint on your half of the court and if you release before crossing the line then you can shoot, otherwise you have to pass.

Regardless, ball jointing is unskilled, invites hacking and is boring to watch (especially as a spectator). If this game is boring to watch, there will be no spectators, if there are no spectator there will be no sponsors, no sponsors no worlds, blah blah, etc.

57 kegs a tourny bitch!

Ok so it's more permissive than in EHBPC, where you need a pass after BJ anywhere on the court.
And more permissive than in some US tourney, where you can't BJ in offensive zone.

Thanks so much Stefan!!!

Okay catfish, I'm going to move my mouth like this...

One thing though: re the final note on infractions: could this rule in any way be refined to allow for donkey punch goals? I believe the purpose of this rule is to ensure people aren't getting whacked in the face with a mallet. That risk really isn't present with the donkey punch and, therefor, I think it should be allowed. Thoughts?

Again, thanks for all your time and hard work!

Okay catfish, I'm going to move my mouth like this...

Pleez dezkrib zis don key punch goal...

"The referee will decide what penalty is appropriate at that time."

I propose the 3060. That's 10 360s, if ya know what I mean. And I think you do.

Polo should be fun.

what's donkey punch?
read it often here, never understand...

I believe it is hitting the ball out of the air. Not 100% sure.

57 kegs a tourny bitch!

hitting from air to ground i think...

This rule is here to prevent huge baseball shooting.

I believe it is hitting the ball in the air, but holding the mallet with your hand touching the head. With no pole remaining between the hand and the head....

this way you can do air shots without the danger of big swatting but only arm length.

what are the dimensions of the nets?

dey boast of dey riches but i see man die like animal

if you mean the goals, they are 1,80 meters wide and 0,80 meters high

Hi guys

Just reading over the rules, there's something interesting in there that I would like to ask a couple questions about ..

With regard to Mallet Hooking, usually it's considered like on like.. We use it quite a bit as a defensive technique

The rules state
"Infractions that can result in a Warning, 30-second or Two-minute penalty:
Hooking or holding- Hooking is defined as using a mallet to restrain a bike or player...."

Could one of the Berlin organisers (Stefan? Morgan?) tell me if the following would be deemed illegal:
- Defender behind an offensive player about to shoot a goal, Defender hooks their mallet to prevent them from shooting
- Two players tackling for the ball, one hooks the others mallet and gains possession and rides away
- Two players both going for a loose ball, their mallets both hook unintentionally and they somehow aren't able to free themselves immediately and are connected for 5 seconds
- What would be the amount of time deemed to be "restraining" another player?

Also, with regard to the Nets/Goals, what happens if an offensive player shuffles into the goals? Who gets the ball out and which side is posession returned to?

Thanks!

It's pretty clear isn't it?

"Infractions that can result in a Warning, 30-second or Two-minute penalty:
Hooking or holding- Hooking is defined as using a mallet to restrain a bike or player...."

It doens't say anything about not being allowed to hook mallets - all of your mentioned scenarios are legal. Just remember that theres a big difference between hooking/holding a mallet and slashing!!

the difference is damage. smacking mallet to mallet should be fine as long as there is no damage.

Doug D
Brooklyn, New York
hardcourtbikepolo+gmail+com
hardcourtbikepolo.com

It's not really clear to me, no...

In my understanding it says that Mallet hooking will incur up to a 2 minute penalty

Unless I'm reading it wrong?

I totally agree about mallet hacking/slashing - that shit is lame and chews up mallets

No, a penalty can incur a 2 minute time out. Like excessive hacking/slashing. 7.2 lays it out pretty clearly.

 

7.2 – mallet-to-mallet – this includes incidental contact playing the ball and lifting another player’s mallet. Striking another player’s mallet with excessive force, or slashing, will result in a warning or a penalty.

 

Infractions that can result in a Warning, 30-second or Two-minute penalty:

Hooking or holding- Hooking is defined as using a mallet to restrain a bike or player. Holding is grabbing a player, their clothing or their bike with your hand or elbow, a.k.a “chicken winging.” For example, if a player destroys an opponent?s mallet, that?s an excessive move, resulting in a penalty.

 

Hope this clears it up.

57 kegs a tourny bitch!

Can we know now how is going to be the preliminary tournament? What kind of format?

_______________________________________________________________
El Vaquilla hubiese jugado Bike Polo.

The prelim tournament will be played with the Karlsruher System. Teams will be put around a circle and play the 3 teams before and after. This creates slightly more balanced results because of the overlapping groups. Top 14 teams will go through. More info posted here. http://www.whbpc2010.org/preliminary-tournament/

57 kegs a tourny bitch!

One last thing...How are teams going to be put around that circle? Random?

_______________________________________________________________
El Vaquilla hubiese jugado Bike Polo.

Thread #2: http://leagueofbikepolo.com/whbpc2010/thread2